How Likely is It that Trump will Try to Proclaim Martial Law?

Bibi is highly effective at being corrupt and very interested in being elected PM over and over, while using rightist / religionist / racist rhetoric to fire up his base. But AFAIK he is not necessarily an Authoritarian seeking formal “PM for life” status. That is a huge yuge difference.

Sisi in Egypt and Erdogan in Turkey are the latter. One of whom is totally the military general turned caudillo and the other totally a populist politician turned caudillo. Putin is of course the archetype of the National secret police/spy agency apparatchik turned caudillo.

All examples the US hard-right can draw on. Of those 4, only Bibi can be voted out. Because only Bibi has not fully de-legitimized any/all opposition as non-human or at least non-citizens. Though admittedly he and his successors’ course forward will have to complete that process at some point else the non-Jewish demographic will overwhelm the Jewish demographic and render the Israeli hard-religious hard-right unelectable.

Whether that succeeds depends on whether the Marshall of the Supreme Court is on his side.

Trump isn’t going to declare martial law. It would go very badly for him if he tried it, possibly ending with him in prison for an attempted coup. I’m sure he’s been told that many times by people close to him. And, as noted by several others in this thread, he’s a blowhard who makes threats all the time without carrying them out.

Trump’s main goal now is to convince his followers that he (and they) have been cheated, so that they’ll continue to give him money. He’s created a stabbed-in-the-back narrative that I believe is dangerous, but that doesn’t mean he has the guts to try anything as risky as declaring martial law.

The Supreme Court hasn’t had a Marshall since 1991.

These potential scenarios are something I have been looking into to see what might happen. I am not a Constitutional lawyer, but the “nightmare” scenario of Pence’s interference, as I understand it, works something like this:

Pence opens the ballots alphabetically, starting with Alabama. When he gets to Arizona, he has two envelopes, one submitted under the Governor’s certification, and one submitted by Republicans, who have held their own electoral vote. Under the Electoral Count Act, Pence is required to open and submit both counts. He then declares that the Republican submission is the real and true vote, and asks for objections. At this point, a Democratic Senator and Representative will, of course, object, requiring each chamber to vote on which slate is the “real and true” electoral vote count.

Thing is, under that same Electoral Count Act, the votes submitted under the Safe Harbor provision are, by default, considered the “real and true” vote, so, by statute, Pence should never make the determination for the Republican slate, as it was not submitted under Safe Harbor.

“[I]f more than one return, or paper purporting to be a return, from a state is received by the president of the Senate, then the only votes to be counted are those that have been “regularly given” by those electors (or their validly-appointed successors) who are shown by the “determination” mentioned in 3 U.S.C. § 5 (“safe harbor”)”

If the chambers disagree on which slate should be counted (because more than one slate has been submitted under Safe Harbor provisions), then “if the two Houses shall disagree in respect of the counting of such votes, then … the votes of the electors whose appointment has been certified by the executive of the State, under the seal thereof, shall be counted.”[23]

So the votes under the Governor’s signature are the votes to be counted. Realistically, there is no path to throwing out the certified electoral vote, and little can be accomplished beyond delaying the inevitable, and forcing Republicans to go on record voting for or against Trump’s attempted overthrow.

As I said, I am not a Constitutional lawyer, and I predict Republican shenanigans. Hell, Tuberville certainly seems of low enough intellectual capacity to fall for this scheme. We will see if McConnell or Thune can back Tommy into a corner and make him realize that there is no political upside to mucking about with the inevitable outcome. No other Republican Senator appears to be signing on to this ploy.

Of course, an awful lot has happened in the last four years that I didn’t think could happen, so we will have to see what they try, but I don’t think there is any real path to overturning the certified results.

Do electoral votes that haven’t been certified by their respective states have any legal weight?

What keeps Pence from just pulling fifty envelopes out of his pocket, declaring that these are the electoral votes he’s decided to read, and then revealing they all have chosen Michael Pence as the next President?

That same Electoral Count Act specifies that the President of the Senate must open all certificates “which the Act further describes as “all the certificates and papers purporting to be certificates.”[23] In doing so, the goal of the Act “was to reduce the Senate President’s discretionary power as gatekeeper to the absolute minimum…”[3]:639” (from the same Wiki entry).

He opens everything. His discretion is that he can offer one of the sets as the “real and true” electoral count. He is supposed to select the “safe harbor” votes if there is only one, or the slate signed off by the governor of the state if there is more than one safe harbor slate. If he selects the safe harbor votes, then the Republicans may object. If he decides to violate the statute and select the bogus Republican slate, the Democrats will certainly object.

" However, when considering such objections, Section 4 requires that – assuming “but one return [from the state] has been received” – no electoral votes from electors whose appointment has been “lawfully certified” under the ascertainment process (see above) can be rejected. The two houses may only reject a vote or votes if both houses agree that such vote(s) have not been “regularly given” by an individual elector or electors.[23]." A “regularly given” vote is one that is qualified under Safe Harbor, or under the ascertainment and signature of the governor.

A lot of the Electoral Count Act appears to have been designed to strip power away from the President of the Senate and give it to the chambers of Congress.

Such is my understanding of how this is supposed to work.

I also meant to add that copies of the certified electoral votes for each state are also sent to the Congressional Archivist, among others, so Pence can’t keep his possession of the certified votes secret.

So Trump vetoed the defense bill - because if there’s one thing you want to do before staging a military coup, it’s to stop paying the troops. Genius.

So could I send in a slate of Biden electoral votes from Texas?

If so, excuse me, I have to find some stamps.

I really would not advise trying it. I’m not sure, but it might be voter fraud, and put you in jail.

I have some in my wallet. I’ll be right there.

That’s ironically one of the first acts I’ve seen by him as an actual political move. He’s been going on about how he’ll veto the stimulus bill because the stimulus is too small (something I’ve actually seen lay people from all sides agree with him on, even everyone I know who hates Trump) . He argues they need a $2000

It would make sense to veto another bill that everyone thought he would support in order to show that he’s willing to do so. Heck, I had some headlines that cut off, so I actually thought at first he did veto the stimulus bill.

It sure seems like he’s daring Congress to see if they will actually use the veto-proof majority. If they can’t, then they’ll have to redo the stimulus bill.

Granted, it could also just be an accident because he was angry, or an idea that someone else gave to him. But it does seem like a legitimate political maneuver.

Who knows. Maye blow up a van in Nashville.

There’s no indication that this was anything more than that.

Alessan’s talking about NDAA, not the stimulus. I agree with Alessan: not the move a Pinochet wannabe wants to be makin’. He’s delaying a 3% pay raise for your average foot soldier, among other things.

Isn’t that what Lord North said about the colonies?

I agree the Chump crazies are a hapless lot. But they could cause some mayhem before being quashed.

By this you seem to imply that the crazies could organize an insurrection that would defeat the most powerful country in the world, and be as successful as the American revolutionaries.

Yet here you say they are hapless, and will be quashed.

Honestly, you’re not making any sense. You’re contradicting yourself.

They can piss in their pants, bathe in gasoline, and light a match.

Be as successful in reality, and actually defeat the government? No. But it’s powerful mythology, and they could believe in their chances of success, and create some problems before they eventually fail. I suspect this is what he meant by “cause mayhem before being quashed.” It’s not that they have any real chance of prevailing. It’s that they are delusional zealots who think they have a shot, and are therefore dangerous. Not dangerous in terms of posing a genuine existential threat to the future of the country, but dangerous in terms of potential violence and destruction and death in the short term. I suspect this is what the apparently contradictory argument was suggesting.