How Long to Restart Civilization?

My Take…

I think Collounsbury and Triskademus are pretty much in the ballpark with regards to the problems facing the colonists. Those that feel that a select number of specialists in various fields will be able to recreate 21st Century technology in a matter of a few generations are deluding themselves.

First concerns will be simple survival. Mortality will be high, and effort will need to be placed in popuation generation. By the time simple survival and rudimentary domestication of plants and animals has been achieved (if that - a hunter gatherer society is more probable), the next generation of colonists will come of age. Without any kind of cultural/educational apparatus in place, then a lot of knowledge will be lost (in fact, even if time and effort are spent in education, a lot will be lost in general because the colonists’ descendants may not have the wherewithall to learn beyond that needed to stay alive). In short, civilization is a tenuous phenomena that requires a host of necessary conditions for it to even begin let alone sustain.

Timeline for recreating 21st Century civilization: My guess, about the same amount of time as it took us (this is based, of course, on the assumption that the colonists aren’t wiped out via disease, warfare, or famine in the early stages, and the population grows quickly relative to the food production sustaining it).

Interesting book that addresses some of these issues is Earth Abides by George Stewart.

All the discussion so far about disease is based on the assumption that the settlers will be the ones to suffer.

Remember also that these settlers themselves are already carriers of many of Earths diseases and parasites, and while the first generation may make it relatively unscathed, the effect of these viruses and parasites on the previously untouched environment could be devastating.

There are so many variables (harsh winter, unfertile soil, etc.) that could each individually make or break this society before it even got going. I’m of the pessimistic and cynical view myself, however, it could be done, and relatively quickly with the proper organization, cooperation, and prioritization. The fact that this group would not have to worry about a military or military weaponry would go a long way towards the speed at which they developed.

The ongoing argument over the food supply is not really as complicated as all that. While domesticating the local plantlife, the rivers and ocean can be harvested of fish and seaweed and oysters, etc. Alternative food sources are available. A net is a simple construction, it does not take any training to dive for underwater vegetation or crustaceans, simple wooden traps for small game are easily rigged, and there would be fruits, vegetables, mosses, roots, insects, tree bark, etc. that could all be gathered.

Obviously keeping everyone fed and warm is priority one. Food/water gathering, house (read: mudhut/leanto/teepee) building and fire pits are the first steps.

While the majority of the population works on this, a small group should begin work on weapons for hunting. Bows and arrows are not an option yet, at least not very useful ones, but spears and other spear type weapons are. Initially, the hunters will only be coming home with small game, or those that have not yet learned to fear humans, but that will change with the evolution of the weapons.

The next step would be to categorize plantlife; edible, medicinal, building material. Medicinal plants/minerals should be harvested ASAP. Scouts should also seek natural formations of salt, or otherwise collect seawater to seperate the salt through evaporation. Once the meats start coming in, there will be a need for preservation.

Small deposits of metals can be smelted and formed into basic metal tools, of which hammers and other smithing tools should be first and foremost.

In the mean while, a small group should be capturing, and domesticating horses, cows, sheep, pigs, chickens, turkeys, etc.

From there, better weapons can be made, increasing hunting and trapping efficiency. Leatherworking and other smithing crafts can be practiced and apprenticed, as well as better housing now that the tools to start logging are available.

I suppose the next step would be to locate some larger veins of ore (iron or ?) and start work on mining equipment. In the old days they did it all with picks and shovels, however, once a sufficient amount has been mined, the smiths can begin work on simple machines to assist.

Every step makes the previous steps more efficient, and thus, makes the next ones easier as more people can devote their efforts to it.

This is of course by no means complete and I know I didn’t touch on every single obstacle they would have to traverse, but I believe I covered the main concerns and got them on their way to rebuilding a technologically advanced society.

First, Ex Tank, excellent contribution. I absolutely agree, dropping these poor bastards off a cliff would be kinder for most of them. And thanks for the further insights.

Now, to address the optimists:

Badtz, you keep assuming availability of items which hunter gatherers won’t be able to exploit.
(a) Pottery: Pottery requires some major, given our paleolithic technology levels, time and resource investments. There’s no accident pottery is largely associated with settlement.
(i) mining clay, (ii) building kilns (iii) collecting wood for and firing kilns
All time and resource intensive. Plus pottery is heavy and fragile. Not suited for mobile lifestyle.

(b) Alcohol. Again, having quantities stored on hand for medicinal uses, beyond knocking someone out, requires investment of time and resources into continued production of alcohol for non-drinking purposes. While less problematic than storing the alcohol, this takes away precious resources from other activities. Recall, hunter gatherers operate on very narrow margins. Upping activity also ups calorie requirements which also ups amount of gathering time. This also ups water requirements. Without infrastructure, this is all very problematic. Finally, alcohol is not going to solve the medical issue. It’s better than nothing but hardly a solution to infections. Historically we can see that.

All in all, you are abstracting away from far too many problems for your city to make sense. They go your route, they’re dead within 10 years.

In re the issue of domestication.

This is a real wild card. Unfortunately I don’t believe that anyone has any solid information on time frames required, so we have to guess.

The issues to grapple with:
(a) Issue of maintaining program: the H-G lifestyle these guys will have to adopt puts real serious constraints on be able to maintain continuity for plant domestication for a ** rapid ** domestication. Animals may be another matter in terms of continuity problems.
(b) Issue of choice: there will have to be trail and error about which plants and animals to try to domesticate. That is a risk, a serious risk as the entire operation is operating on the margins. Animals, risky. Doggies. How easy? How many deaths from failed attempts? Bovines. Wild bovines. Again, *** perhaps possible*** in one generation or perhaps not, but how much effort and time? Plants, again how much effort.
© Time to Domestication: mentioned above but I want to focus on this specifically. My work leads me to suspect that while plant domestication ** might ** be achievable in one generation, it will not be a matter of years but decades – assuming they hit upon the best candidate. Why? Because our wandering folks, while on one hand having an understanding of how to force selection, will not have many tools at their disposal nor be able to maintain a coherent selection/breeding program because of their mobility. For animals, there is a similar issue: after assuming that proper choice is made (with casualties) how much time to breed true domestic? I think spoke is possibly correct this could be achieved within a few years for canines, assuming you hit upon the right ones. Bovines? Sheep? Let’s leave aside cattle as I think that will be both too dangerous and too large a task for first generation. Some kind of sheep/goat. Possible, but difficult.

All in all, the optimists keep abstracting away from fundamental resource issues. Time/space constraints will go hand in hand. One can not assume hunter gatherer garden of plenty and then impose settled style level of activity/energy/time investment. You will run into resource problems. Further, comments ignore issues like drought. Over a 10 year span the band will hit drought, and since they will not have any scientific apparatus to predict this, they will be caught unawares. Until they had long term sense of patterns, being caught unawares will impose real costs in terms of mortality and reduced caloric intake, in turn reducing human capital for investment in non-survival endeavors. Note, for example that our examples of H-G lifestyles are from people who are well-in-tune with their environment due to accumulated knowledge. That’s not to make an absurd new agey point but rather to understand that “ease” of H-G lifestyle depends on already knowing the general vageries of the environment, locations of food and water resources for both good and bad years, properties of both food and water resources, being able to predict and hedge risk to a certain extent. Our boys and girls are not going to have that luxury at the start, even if they are sent to an alternate earth.

I don’t wish to diss anyone but this type of thinking fairly clearly to me derives from First World experience where our “risk” level is highly reduced, where continuity is the norm. Having had mucho third world exposure, I am disabused of this world view. Our boys are going to face some serious, serious issues even if they’re all tough little fuckers like Ex Tank. Historical examples cited, as in re the first English settlers (my dear ancestors, stupid bastids) in North America should be enough to suggest the problems faced in a new environment.

All in all, if you’re not giving these guys tools, they are fucked and fucked badly. Throw em a bone and give them at least modern tools and they may have a fighting chance, although even with modern tool sets I see serious problems beyond the first few decades. I think others will agree with me in hazarding the opinion in hunting alone, these guys will face some nasty mortality rates as they struggle to master neolithic weapons (which they made, and face a learning curve in re achieving optimal results) in a live, hostile and hungry environment.

I think the lesson from this mental exercise is one can not underestimate how much our modern lifestyle and resource base depends on accumulated capital in the widest sense of the term. Attempts to reconstruct it as it is from nothing will fail.

I see this kind of failure on a daily basis doing business in Africa. Inappropriate investment in unsupportable projects because the wider infrastructure and resource base is just not there to support it. Investments which on paper would create wealth, in fact destroying it because the consultants and so forth just didn’t fucking understand how much their assumptions depended on a wider set of resources, implied infrastructure etc.

As far as weapon mastery, my idea (though perhaps flawed) supposed that those sent back will have been trained ahead of time - a good portion will have been making and using bows from raw materials for years in survival courses. How many years of training did it take to make a bowman? If you have wood and/or dead animals and the know-how, you can make an effective ranged weapon.

Maybe a permanent settlement is impossible at an early stage, at least one where the majority of the population lives and works. I think with a few year’s advance notice we could train very effective hunter-gatherers, though, and oral traditions can preserve a lot of useful knowledge. They might have to spend a few decades roaming the wilderness in small bands (maybe meeting regularly at the future city site) before making the transition to agriculture and city living.

Let me use this post to illustrate:

I had been working on the assumption that (a) our environment is Earth, say pre-hominid exit from Africa (b) our location is Middle East. Optimal and reduces variables. Introduction of modern disease is likely to be minimal, if it is not, this simply steps up the problems for the community. Last thing they need is a die back. For the most part, it’s the local parasites and diseases that will have a field day with our colonists. Let us say that our colonists go back 500Ky, they will face not modern versions of diseases which they may have some immunity to, but modern version -500Ky worth of accumulated genetic change.

Who comes out on top?

The military question is actually fairly irrelevant. Their enemy is the environment. They have to invest weapons not to fight other hominids, yet, but Mr. Megafauna who wants to stomp on them or eat them.

Oh yes it is.

Of unknown lenght to domestication per my comments above.

True, to an extent, although locating appropriate resources as well as avoiding dangers is another matter. (e.g. how many times is Bob fisherman lost to Mr. megacrocodile)

True, but H-G lifestyle in this style requires degree of dispersal.

Each band will have to work seperately, IMHO. Depending on what population size. Mastery of neolithic technologies will take time, as will mastery new environment without predictive tools.

Smithing requires settlement. Settlement requires stable food resources. Not going to work.
(a) As mentioned previously, mastering smithing under early metal age technology is going to require time and effort. Even if they trained before hand we still face
(b) time and effort in building, maintaining the furnace
© supplying the furnace with fuel
(d) locating, digging ores
(e) hauling, moving
(f) creating smithies, maintaining smithies – seasonal? Perhaps although see comments above in re understanding variations in environment.

All these activities over and above survival maintenance. As I mentioned, H-G lifestyle assumes a certain familiarity with environment and level of caloric expenditure. Up this over and above what one is expending on survival activities and you up the equation. Resources, time.

I don’t believe this is going to be that easy at all. Domestication is the big unknown here, but I reject the idea it is a simple matter of capture. And larger animals will not be simple.

I find the idea that our group gets here from scratch to be unsupportable.

Again, we’ve utterly abstracted away from the issue of resources and time: all this are activities which require surpluses to support. Where are these surpluses coming from? They have to come in part from settled agriculture, but you’re not going to achieve that in a wink of an eye.

Perhaps, on the other hand, none will have faced this kind of environment. Even stipulating knowledge or mastery of construction, this has to be transferred to new environ.

They still have to know their environment and nothing removes that unfamiliarity (with the side observation that if you stipulate pre-arrival survey this becomes nothing much more than a TV show). Nor do I think one can train in reality a H-G lifestyle without immersion.

You’ve once more abstracted away from the issue of domestication, how to proceed. Plant and animal domestication will not be manna from heaven. And initial domesticates will be of low quality as compared to modern versions. Lower margins.

Settled living in the first generation under our original assumptions is impossible.

Collounsbury wrote:

I disagree. I think basic metalwork on a small scale could be mastered fairly quickly.

I saw a documentary on the so-called “Ice Man” (the Bronze Age mummy pulled from the glacier in the Alps), in which they discussed at some length his tools. One of those tools was a copper axe.

As part of the documentary, a guy with some know-how went out into the woods, located some copper ore, built a fire, and managed to create a very nice-looking copper axe head within a day’s time.

That leads me to believe that our settlers might be able to progress to a Bronze Age culture pretty quickly if they can overcome food problems. Copper and tin, at least, are relatively easy to master.

I’m sure iron production would require a furnace, but even that is do-able. (A brick or rock furnace, with a bellows made from leather and wood.) The “new iron age” should follow the “new bronze age” pretty quickly. (Again, ignoring for the moment the food issues.)

You guys rock. I never could have predicted the enthusiastic and thoughtful responses we’ve gotten. When the interdimensional vortex opens, I’m taking you all with me. Especially Collounsbury and the other pessimists.

Speaking of whom: Jois, 15,000 years? Granted, a little pessimism is healthy, but you’ve got the path from hunter/gatherer to space shuttle/drywall taking our well-informed colonists as long as it took by trial and error the first time! Don’t you think the realistic view has it going just a mite faster?

Even if the books are all lost and the only concepts that transcend the first few generations are Newtonian physics, modern hygiene and the scientific method, they’ll still be ahead of the game by centuries.

Great thread…but I’m leaning towards the “The die out fairly quickly, or revert to barbarianism” if they are given nothing. And rather than state that they can take books, but nothing else, what if you modify the OP and allow them a set weight amount for each person? Say 80lbs each? That way with a large enough group, you could bring some technical manuals to help preserve knowledge, some medical supplies, and some basic tools to help them survive. Or better yet…a total weight limit for the entire project. Say 10,000lbs total, including the weight of the colonist. I think this would be a more realist experiment. Dropping 3,000 people in the wilderness naked is going to result in 3,000 dead bodies in a short amount of time.

eponymous-

I was going to mention Earth Abides by George Stewart. I’m glad you did. It deals with the issue of passing knowledge along to future generations.

SPOILER ALERT

In that book, a plague wipes out all but a few scattered individuals. The protagonist winds up forming a small community with other survivors. Of course, he is desperate to pass along to future generations his own knowledge, and the knowledge to be found in books. He tries to teach the young, but they have little patience to learn reading and math. Too many other things to do.

The protagonist also emphasizes to the clan the importance of the library and all the books it contains, but this idea gets transmuted into religion/superstition.

The protagonist’s grandchildren wind up in a tribal cuture, using old coins to make arrowheads.

Speaking of religion, I can see some sort of pseudo-priesthood winding up in charge of the books that are brought along by our colonists, the priesthood consisting of those who have been taught to read. I can also imagine such a priesthood taking advantage of their position to lord it over the rest of the group. They might encourage the mass of people to regard the books as holy writs, to which only the priests can grant access.

Speaking of whom: Jois, 15,000 years? Granted, a little pessimism is healthy, but you’ve got the path from hunter/gatherer to space shuttle/drywall taking our well-informed colonists as long as it took by trial and error the first time! Don’t you think the realistic view has it going just a mite faster?

Well, maybe! Where were you going to drop this group? No one land mass provided the goods and animals that we take for granted today. What if the largest animal for domestication were wolves? After we had made handaxes we could cut down saplings to make travois(es?), cure leather, make harnesses for the wolves and weave a little fabric to complete the job? How many textbooks or references could the wolf pull on the travois at one time?

Would many be willing to go work in the mines or breeding animals (we got TB from cattle, right?) when it is perfectly obvious that others would be using spears to fish by the river’s edge all day? Many of the difficult and dangerous tasks are undertaken by people who had little choice - miners in the 1800-1900s, few other opportunities.

Maybe horses in the US were only knee high but there were camels here. Can you see removing tree stumps with the help of a couple of camels? Maybe there would be mammoths?

My neighbor was using a machete to cut down a ten inch maple tree in his back yard a couple of weekends ago. He lived, the tree didn’t hit his house but I think it was more thanks to another neighbor who went over there with a chain saw than anything else. They cut down four of these trees in all and there wasn’t enough wood to keep a fireplace going for more than a couple of days.

And no one has mentioned the kind of drug that would be necessary to get everyone to cooperate and not insist that their priorities were the most important one, even to the exclusion of all others. It isn’t the nice cooperative people who have moved our civilization forward but often the glazed-eyed, single-minded, quite driven individualist who had to be cared for by a small but dedicated group.

The pre-revolutionary war people of Concord MA were immortalized in The Minutemen by Robert A. Gross and all that kept them together were strong religious beliefs. Even at that they split into two churches, exiled themselves to RI, and “moved on” when things got too tough. What will be the glue that holds these 30,000 orso people together? Won’t be religion or the fear of the rain gods this time.

The early civilizations weren’t democratic, the upper crust were better housed and fed than the others, and they ran the dams, re-assigned land after flooding, designed and directed water and refuse distribution/removal. Where would the labor come from?

See, pessimistic, concerned about out long term ability to cooperate and be altruistic, wondering how I’d feel about the beer made from pre-chewed roots and spit into…

Jois

The proposed phenomenon is a chaotic system, in that tiny variables among the initial conditions alter the outcome beyond the range of predictability very rapidly. How do you select your “colonists” initially? How much preparation is there, how much equipment, how much knowledge? Let’s face it, three thousand people cannot even carry the knowledge of the human race, if it is in books. We have started loosing ground, and we haven’t even left yet! The books alone are a plot device, which cannot be reproduced without a lot of technology. Ever read a five hundred year old book? Did you take it on a camping trip?

To blithely state that they can carry no technology sound simple, but if you send them naked they all die, and if they wear clothes, they have some technology. If they use game theory as a premise to prepare, their “clothing” comes apart into high strength cord, and water gathering sheets. So, no technology is not possible, unless you want to see how long it takes naked people carrying books to die in the wilderness.

If you randomly snatch people out of modern locales, you end up with some with knives, some with guns, and some with AIDS. If you take volunteers, you have to suppose that your own theories of who will volunteer, and why might not reflect the entire range of such motives. One or more psychotic or sociopath can make a big difference in this situation. If you take no doctors, you get more deaths. If you take to many doctors, you have people well attended as they die of exquisitely diagnosed malnutrition, and exposure.

I think Callounsbury overestimates the disease factor, for most scenarios. But the normal primitive life expectancy will assert itself in the first generation. We could probably beat the infant and maternal mortality statistics down, if we rigorously apply our modern understanding of birth methods. But ten percent for both is not unlikely. So, we have to have healthy women, with good child bearing experience to start. The value of women to our nascent society is huge. Feeding them, and the children is far more important than getting any metal working in place.

Long before the first gin mill, we need to build a nursery school, and an elementary school. To do that, we need a highly motivated young adult population, with a dedicated elder group willing to forgo their own benefit to provide continuity for the tribe. Make no mistake about it, if this association of people doesn’t become a tribe very quickly, it won’t be doing much iron mining this millennium.

Fascinating, fascinating thread. Interesting OP, elevated to near art by the contributions of various Dopers. This is a challenging and stimulating example of exactly why the SDMB is so damn cool, and just how intelligent, articulate, and well-rounded our various correspondents are.

That said, I’d like to offer some half-assed thoughts of my own. :slight_smile:

First, a point regarding settled agriculture and domestication of plants. It’s critical to remember that plants as they existed in the wild, minus human influence, are very different than they are today. Our foot-long ears of corn are the result of hundreds of years of selective breeding; as shown in Jared Diamond’s much-cited book, corn was originally small and not particularly suited to mass-production and -consumption.

In other words, it isn’t going to be a simple matter of dispatching a team to collect samples/seeds for rice, wheat, and so on, returning, planting them, and harvesting them within a couple of years. You’re going to have to maintain the hunter/gatherer lifestyle for a very long time before you’ve managed to whip the various flora into shape. IANABotanist, but I imagine it’ll be many, many generations of careful crossbreeding before you can plant a reliable field of wheat and expect to get enough out of it to support a community.

Second, you have the question of genetic diversity. This has been touched on briefly, but unless I missed something it hasn’t been explored fully. What is the minimum number of people you must have to ensure that the population won’t sink into the sandtrap of inbreeding? How far back does a shared branch on the family tree have to be to minimize the risk of genetic ailment, and how can this be extrapolated into a minimum population size? I’m not a physiologist or geneticist, so any guess on my part would be exactly that, a guess. But five hundred? A thousand? Ten thousand? There has to be a lower limit.

Third, how much planning is allowed? This has also been touched on, but I don’t think it’s gotten the attention it deserves. The fact that within a few days the community of Dopers has managed to raise a whole series of very valid concerns for the hypothetical community means that contingency plans can be formulated to not necessarily eliminate those concerns but at least mitigate them to some extent. The nature of the challenge is quite different if what you’re doing is inviting a whole range of smart people to join an “adventure” without telling them what they’re doing and where they’re going.

If you are allowed to formulate a plan, for example, then you can immediately set up an appropriate social structure on arrival. You immediately divide the group into various functional groups, based on priority: These people get to hunt/gather, these people build structures, these people guard the community against predators, these people set to work making tools, and so on. An intelligently designed pre-specialization plan could go a long way toward giving the group the foothold it needs to survive as a viable community past the first couple of generations, instead of dissolving into anarchy (which I agree with the esteemed Collounsbury and others as being the biggest hurdle). You can also spread the community out according to a pre-determined geographic formula so as to minimize risks of disease communicability, or a random disaster – flood, fire, giant mutated rampaging lizard – wiping everybody out at once. And you can deal with “knowledge loss” by assigning a small team to documentation, right from the start. (Who knew we’d need tech writers on this expedition? ;)) They can chip notes in cave walls, write with berries on peeled bark, or whatever, until the group manages to produce papyrus and ink or some other more efficient knowledge-storage system.

If you don’t let them formulate a plan ahead of time, then I agree, you might as well shoot them in the head as they step up to the time transporter.

Fourth, the question of human nature has come up here and there, but I would respectfully suggest that it requires a lot more attention than it’s gotten. This demands delving into unanswerable areas of philosophy, but it is, I think, necessary to spend some time looking at these questions. For example, at the most basic level: Are people essentially selfish, or can they quell the desire for short-term personal gain with the understanding that they’re contributing to the long-term health of the community at large and therefore the survival of their individual offspring?

Consider a more specific example. The first generation is going to have it very, very rough; I think we all agree on that. Many people will die of septic distress. Many will eat poisonous berries. Many will be chomped by dire wolves or sabre-tooth tigers. Many will be killed by fellow humans in the heat of primate jealousy. So, given this disturbingly high death rate, how will the remaining group respond? It’s inevitable you’ll have at least a few people who say “screw this” and go off on their own. Can you prepare the group for it? In the pre-planning stage noted above, can you establish the expectation that several dozen people will have died of simple malnutrition within just a few months, let alone predation, disease, accident, and everything else? Will making this expectation clear mitigate the effects of fear and frustration enough that the community will hold together? I don’t know; I just bring it up as a point worthy of exploration.

There’s another aspect to human nature, and that’s cultural organization. Kim Stanley Robinson, in Red Mars, gets a lot of mileage out of observing how the different nationalities have trouble co-existing. What kind of group are you sending? (Warning: Broad generalizations ahead.) Are they all mainland Chinese? If so, there might be a slightly higher predilection for individuals to subvert their desires in favor of the group’s requirements. How about Muslims? Does the difference in male/female roles in Muslim culture make them more or less efficient than, say, an American group in which male and female experts are ostensibly interchangeable? And what about the American trait of questioning leadership and favoring individual accomplishment? Does that make such a community more or less stable than Germans or Latin Americans or Russians or any other group that has a specific cultural profile with identifiable behavioral and organizational characteristics?

Or, God forbid, are you going to try to send up a mixed group? Science fiction authors love to populate a new world with five Americans, four Russians, two Brits, a Japanese, two Pakistani, a Swede, and so on, in order to show how they clash at first but end up working together. If you expanded the proportions by a factor of fifty, would that actually work? Only the most starry-eyed idealist, I think, would deny that such a community, if attempted in real life, would immediately balkanize and separate into tribal factions.

Sorry if this got a little long; I just wanted to point out that this question is a lot more complicated than just worrying about how the hypothetical group will logistically use tools to dig out the ore, perform surgery, and such.

Still a good question, though. :slight_smile:

I think you’re all missing two of the most important requirements - government, and the retaining and teaching of mathematics and the scientific method.

It was these three things that really kicked off human progress. Specifically, capitalism allowed for the formation of capital and the competition amongst individuals that led to advancement. And without the scientific method, your attempts at improvement amount to just flailing around wildly hoping to hit paydirt.

I assume we can retain and teach the scientific method. Government is much more iffy. Without a capitalist government, you’re going to have a hard time convincing people to come in out of the fields and work hard on inventing things that will not be of any personal use to them (or not enough use to make up for the lost time in the fields).

There have been agrarian communities that survived for thousands of years without almost any advancement. The ancient Egyptians, for example. People need an incentive to strive for more. In many societies that incentive came from religion, and that’s why most of the great works of these civilizations were religious.

Education’s a biggie. When you are scrabbling for existance, you simply can’t afford to give your kids a higher education. The books you brought with you will deteriorate. And without solid grounding in basic math, your calculus text will just be gibberish to your kid anyway.

Then there’s the problem of creating all the incremental technologies, which I think many of you are greatly underestimating. For example, making steel is not as simple as just finding some iron ore and applying the right mix of elements. How do you make a fire hot enough? How do you contain that fire? Wood is no good - a wood fire with a bellows might get you a soft pig-iron. So now you need to find coal. And once you find it, you have to be able to mine it in quantity, without steel. Not an easy proposition.

An example: people knew how to make airplanes for perhaps 70-80 years before the Wright brothers. But they couldn’t build them, because they didn’t have an engine with a high enough power-to-weight ratio. Current engine technology used steam to drive pistons, which was just way too inefficient. Then we discovered oil, but didn’t have the alloys needed to built lightweight cylinders that could withstand the heat and pressure.

Once those technologies became available, and the first light internal combustion engines became available, airplanes were inevitable, and in fact there were at least five or six under construction when the Wright brothers flew, all of which eventually did fly. Within a few short years, airplanes were all over the place.

So, having said all that, here’s my prediction: First, I think it’s highly likely that this colony would vanish without a trace. The odds of a small group of people starting from scratch surviving and prospering is pretty small, I think. Oh, some of their children might survive, but all knowledge would be lost.

If they do thrive (let’s say we drop them in the equivalent of the Nile delta, where food is plentiful, and easily-domesticated animals are abundant), then I think there’s a good chance that they will drop technology altogether and become complacent and lose their knowledge. You have to provide an incentive to strive.

But let’s assume that they are committed to regaining their lost technology, and live where food is abundant and they are relatively safe. So they have leisure time to try and regain what they lost. How long?

At best, perhaps 300 years. At worst, perhaps 1000. That’s all it took us, really. You can’t say that it took us 12,000 years to get to this point, because the vast majority of that time was spent in relative stasis. But once the double innovation of the scientific method and capitalism kicked off the industrial revolution, we made fast advances.

So, first generation gets established, builds a community, and builds enough of an infrastructure to guarantee that their kids will be educated. Perhaps they even find enough time to search out seams of coal and some basic iron ore. By the time they die, they have iron pots, horse-drawn plows, and the first factories are opening to manufacture things like garments, powered by water wheels.

Our community might even have a sewer system made of clay aquiducts, and a ready source of fuel for lamps (required to maintain an education, because school will almost certainly be at night after the work is done).

After years of nothing, this generation will be very proud of what they accomplished, and will die happy.

The next generation will make improvements in metallurgy, perhaps to the point of making steam boilers. This might get us a bit of electricity here and there, but it will be expensive and used only for mandatory research. This generation might even have enough food storage to allow some people to become full-time scientists and engineers. The pace of improvement would really pick up, and by the time they die, we might have the odd factory mass-producing things like horseshoes, cutlery, coins, etc. I’m assuming that some kind of capitalist government will exist, or all bets are off. Remember, these factories will be literally sweatshops. There will be people whos jobs are backbreaking, shovelling coal into a boiler all day, mining it, hauling it, etc. Without an incentive, they just won’t do it. I can’t stress the requirement of good government enough.

And so it goes - many improvements in steel are required before we can lay rails for transport, and before that you need huge factories to make locomotives, which implies a huge population and enough diversity to allow thousands of people to focus on such large-scale tasks. But until you have wide scale transport, you have a lot of duplicated effort, and very little trade, which means the economy stays very inefficient and the resources available to science and technology stay relatively small. Plus, as your population expands and relocates, they can take relatively few goods with them, which means they start from scratch. Look at the first pioneers out west - long after the people in cities in the east had electric light and trolleycars, the settlers were freezing in the dark and plowing the fields by hand. It was the advent of railroads that allowed people to bring their technology with them when civilization expanded. Until you get to that point, the pace of innovation will be very slow.

One major factor here is the size of your population. You need millions of people to sustain the diversity to make something like a train. You need experts in rubber, fuels, steel, construction, mathematics, geology, geography, you name it. This implies a huge population. So just by sheer numbers you’re looking at many generations into the future.

If this society breeds like rabbits and stays successful, perhaps 8 or 9 generations are required before we have that kind of population. And now government becomes even more important, because you’ll start having population pressure, and the potential for war and conflict that could stop advancement in its tracks.

Then there are the wildcards - a fire destroying critical books, floods, plagues, etc. Which is why I started by saying that the most likely result was that the colony would vanish in a couple of generations.

Fun topic!

First, Trisk I do not think that I am exageratting disease impact over the long term. I suggest that folks underestimate the impact of disease/parasites in both short and long term.

** In re metal working **

spoke: not having seen the show it’s hard to comment. However, I have my reservations in re reconstructions. Everything, which is not saying all that much but for what it’s worth, I have read have strongly indicated metal smelting goes with settlement.

Ergo, while I have my reservations in re your example, I’ll stipulate episodic smelting. However, I maintain the position that any large scale smelting will absolutely require settlement. Further, in re episodic smelting, I observe that there is a cost-benefit analysis in re assigning effort and resources to this. Burnable wood going to smelting is not going to another usage such as smoking meat for storage. Given obtaining wood is going to be (a) time consuming (b) derived from limited supplies, there is a question of resource allocation. (Of course to contradict myself, it might turn out to be as efficient as flint knapping. Clearly the making of stone tools is time-consuming, so it may be a rapid move to metals could be worth the risk. This assumes decent finds of easily worked metals like tin and copper — if we assume Middle East not unlikely…

Nonetheless, this community, as per the OP definitions, is operating on very, very narrow margins. I don’t see them as having sufficient surplus to support a sustained move to copper age culture. They’re in a trap because as per the original stipulations, they have to simultaneously create the preconditions for metal using culture, including plant and animal domestication in order to throw off a surplus.

Review of Conditions:

I think that the original concept depended on what appears to be in the end an unsupportable assumption: 20/21st century knowledge will give an inherent leg up in survival, even to some poor bastids dumped with nothing into an alternate Mid East w/o hominids .

I think we can see fairly clearly that in this scenario that roughly 90% of civilized knowledge is fairly useless in the first stage, hunter gathering. Our specialists are useless, the folks needed are recreated hunter gatherers — might do better to recruit some Khoi. The remaining useful knowledge of course will prove key in keeping mortality under control. However, I do not believe it is sufficient to bootstrap our band of whatever number into a technological society. Best-case scenario, I see them just holding on to form a sort of super-hunter gatherer society. However, scientific method, other cultural advantages will slough off like old skin as the second and third generations mature. By fourth or fifth generation — and recall this is my most optimistic reading — we’ve lost most signs of the origin. Among the sole advantages I see holding on is the knowledge that animals, plants can be domesticated — and I will grant some domestication probably in the first two generations in this optimistic scenario. However, by fourth or fifth generation whatever group solidarity there once was is gone.

As I see, therefor, the most optimistic but realistic reading of the original proposition gives us at best a leap into the world of 7000 years BP, instead of the world of 50000 BP as they stepped naked (or close to) into the world. I agree with Jois, another 7000 to 10000 to recreate 20th century society, if all goes well. Hey, its still a short cut. Still removed about 5 mill years of evolution, 50 K years of culture accumulation. Not bad.

Now, for all my pessimism, this was a lot of fun.

Are we assuming that a representative population from the 21st century is transported back in time? If so, how could the aggregate society possibly survive the onslaught of undetectable, untreatable, unprevantable HIV, HBV, HCV, and tuberculosis?

The same way everyone else did before the 19th century. Disease is overrated - if we eliminated all disease including cancer, it would only add a few years to the average life expectancy.

Life expectancy has held fairly constant for people who managed to survive into their teens. The main reason average life expectancy was so much lower in earlier centuries was because of infant mortality. There are plenty of examples of people who lived to be 80, 90 or more, thousands of years ago.

I’d be a lot more worried about simple starvation than disease. That was the big killer. Disease probably ranked along with accidents in the fields and being attacked by wild animals, other than in relatively short spans of time when plagues wiped out large numbers in highly concentrated areas.

I’m a little more optimistic than Coullounsbury, but not by much. I think the most likely result is the same as he suggests - this colony will vanish. Descendants may survive and even flourish, but not as technological people. That knowledge will vanish.

And if everything goes right and they do start down the path of technological growth, it’ll still be hundreds of years before they’re back to the kind of technology that existed at the very start of the industrial revolution.

Airplanes maybe in 1000 years.

(This thread has come a long way from IMHO.)

To the extent that replies have come from “optimists” and “pessimists”, I would have to come down on the pessimist side. Yet there is some reason to believe that a small group of people placed in a primitive environment with little more than the clothes on their backs can at least survive and to some extent thrive.

I’m thinking of Easter Island and other isolated islands–but for all I know, even then trade with other groups may have been a factor that would be missing in our scenario here.

One thing seems sure. If we were to do this, we would be condemning thousands of people and millions of their progeny (with luck!) to generations of disease, misery, and untimely death. We would be putting all normal ethical considerations aside, presumably for some overriding need.

If ethics aren’t a concern, maybe we need find (as has already been suggested) a tribe of H-Gers and send them back to an area having an environment similar to their current one. This would seem to optimize their chances of survival, but does nothing to ensure that they would pursue a path toward modern technology.

So I propose we would have to play God a little bit (like we aren’t doing that already), and give our tribe a religion that incorporates the direction we want them to go and many of the basic tenets that will lead them that direction. Religion seems to pass from generation to generation with minimal loss compared to other forms of “impractical” knowledge.

Anyone want to start a religion that has a goal of (say) reaching the moon, and is built on a very basic knowledge of atomic theory, germ theory, scientific method, etc?

I enjoy reading your posts, Sam, but care to back this up with a cite?

[fundy]Why, Methuselah lived to almost 1000![/fundy]

I don’t have cites, but there were people who lived extremely long times in the distant past, maybe some who could even come close to our current record holders, I wouldn’t be surprised. They were no doubt rarer than they are today, though, and your chance of making it to 70 now is probably better than your chances of living to 50 before.

I don’t think infant mortality, however, is counted when average life expectancy is figured for a population. I seem to recall reading somewhere that deaths before the age of 4 or so are disregarded when collecting data. If I am wrong someone please correct me, I’m not an actuary or statistician.

The reason why I think the civilization will advance faster the second time around, even if they have to revert to a hunter-gatherer lifestyle initially, is that I believe in the endurance of ideas. Our rise to where we are is not the product of thousands of years of achingly slow progress - it was years of everything being done exactly the same punctuated by bursts of change when new ideas were introduced into our pool of thought. Very few important and useful ideas and technologies have been truly lost in our history, though regional collapses of civilization were common. Our people, even if they were not picked for their knowledge and intelligence and are just a typical mix of early 21st century humans, already have important knowledge that took thousands of years to create. We understand disease, how it is spread, and how to avoid some of it. We know wheels are very useful labor-saving devices. We know to put rigid collars on our beasts of burden to double their efficiency. If the population is reduced far enough, much will be lost, but some will stick, and that will save a lot of time, the more you already know the faster you will learn the rest.