Really? I never did. The Paris attacks were assumed from the outset to be an ISIS-inspired highly organized massacre. The US attacks, and presumably the Nice one as well, were the work of homegrown radicals, just like the Planned Parenthood shootings, the Newtown school massacre, and the Isla Vista killings, among others.
(Oddly, most people seem not to mind when non-Muslim mass killers are described as having mental illness issues in addition to fanatical beliefs. But when a Muslim mass killer is described in that way, it’s seen as somehow “excusing” his crimes.)
There are (at least) two big picture phenomena at work here. One is the radicalization of Islam. The other is the Islamicization of radicals. Lists of terrorists claiming to have done bad things for ISIS include both types. Orlando was pretty clearly the latter, and it’s looking like Nice is too. Paris pretty clearly the former. It is sometimes useful to separate them, though in the end, I’m not sure it really matters to what we do about it.
Going way back on some of those. I’m glad you mentioned Birmingham, though, because as a kid I remember white and black alike, often arm in arm, protesting, marching, and some even dying for civil rights for all our citizens.
I don’t see those peaceful Muslims doing that. I don’t see them protesting against the radicals that hate so badly that they kill in the name of their God. Not to protest that almost makes it seem that they implicitly support it.
Some of those that protested for civil rights were beaten, some even killed. You do the right thing. You’d think that those billions of peaceful Muslims would be offended enough that the radicals are killing in the name of their God that they would protest and end it. Billions of peaceful Muslims, we are told, and relatively few radicals. You tell me that the billions fear the few that much to stand by while the few mock their God, and blame their God for the hate?
Since the term mullah, a term of the Middle east and iranian area, indicates nothing more than being a learned scholar … just about any. Of course since it is only in the past decade that any significant Western christian organization has taken such steps it is a stupid ridiculous faux benchmark advanced to justify the bigotted thinking.
Of course he is showing the usual western christian tradition confusion in thinking the title he reads in the newspaper is = to the ordained clerics
There is no God but the one God. It is not their God, it is God.
Of course since there are protests against, and statements and etc. and the hateful bigots ignore and pose this faux question anyway… The hatred of the minorities and the eradicationist instinct of the Western christendom is a thousands years old tradition.
“Protest radical islam” is a stupid meaningless statement. there are protests all the time against the organizations like the DAESH, as in the Iraq.
Of course the faux questions will continue, but the real source is evident enough - it is easy enough to see the gross hypocrisy when if presumed white Christians are killed (even if thhe numbers of Maghrebine origin killed are numerous) you put the colors up on your facebooks, but if Turks or others are killed by the same DAESH, nothing…
Ah, now we see your real complaint. You’re just whining that the billions of peaceful Muslims haven’t actually managed to eradicate radical-Islamist terror attacks so that you can stop worrying about them. You don’t care whether anti-terror Muslims are “doing the right thing” or risking their lives or families; you’re just upset because whatever they’re doing hasn’t actually stopped all terror attacks. How noble and idealistic of you.
By Mr Natural’s reasoning, we could argue that since something over 99% of terror attacks are committed by men, it’s the fault of the billions of allegedly peaceful men that the “relatively few radicals” are still committing terror crimes. Why don’t the peaceful billions just “protest and end it”? Gotta be easy, right? :dubious:
I stay away from message boards and social media on weekends (between roughly 6 p.m. Friday and 8 a.m. Monday), so this will be my last post until Monday.
My good friend Colin is not an atheist like me; in fact, he is a devout Christian, though he is a staunch Democrat like I am. He posted something very wise in response to my Facebook comments, which I am sharing with his permission:
The answer, of course, is that there is a taboo against criticizing religion, especially against criticizing any religion not primarily practiced by white conservatives. And that’s got to change.
This is a combined dodge, and strawman. You won’t address my actual proposal, as you say “no, it wouldn’t be what you suggest, it would be like the Trail of Tears”. Yet even that atrocity (which, BTW, worked out pretty well for white folks) was not as bad as the Nazis’ “Final Solution”. Point being, things are done differently in different times and places. It can happen!
That’s not much of a bar to clear. Sam Harris cited the following polls on his podcast:
Yes, and clearly life in Tel Aviv for a feminist woman, or a gay man, or a freethinker, is far superior to what it would be anywhere else in the Middle East. Believe me, I have no love for the Israeli right, but I think overall, Israel actually serves as a point for my side.
This narrative just isn’t supported by the facts, as much as the regressive left wishes otherwise. Research has found radical Islamic extremism at least as prevalent in families with high education and good economic circumstances as anywhere else. And Latin America is full of people who have been screwed over by Western colonialism, but who don’t use that to motivate them to engage in terrorism (thank “god”). It’s clear that the actual doctrines and culture of Islam are to blame here.
As for the fact that U.S. Muslims seem less inclined to extremism, there are some who believe that this is in part because Americans are less secular than Europeans, and therefore less offensive to Muslims, who tend to be more devout than the average religion. If this is the case, it’s even more appalling to me as a progressive, highly secular atheist.
Yes, good point. Although to be fair, a lot of them are keeping their head down because of fear. (Ah, now I see **elucidator **made the same point.)
I said it was a thought experiment, and was asking where the threshold is. I could not have been more clear.
I majored in history in college and took a graduate seminar on Islam, taught by a Muslim. My mother is a retired professor of sociology, and my wife has a master’s in sociology. Thanks all the same, though! (I can’t stand Chomsky, but I’ll try not to be too insulted by that line.)
As I said in the OP, this actuarial approach just won’t fly. A situation where secular French people see Muslims and instinctually feel their hearts racing, wondering if an attack is immiment, is just not tenable. It’s not fair to the nonviolent Muslims, but it can’t be eradicated just by preaching probability.
That’s a sickening thought, because now others around the world know they don’t have to go through all the trouble of acquiring guns and explosives.
Well, aren’t you sweet? <3
Calling me “racist” just doesn’t wash. I’ve a long history of cheering for the U.S. to become less white, of supporting reparations for slavery, of dissing on the Deep South, etc. By some definitions you could call me a “bigot” and have an argument.
Comfortable people are a lot less likely to risk their lives for extremist ideology than desperate people, and this easily shows up in the statistics – wealthier and more stable Muslim countries (and wealthier countries in general) experience less extremist violence than poorer and less stable countries.
“There are some who believe…”
LOL, Mr. Trump. You hear things? People say?
I think it’s probably because most American Muslims are relatively affluent and comfortable and rate highly on assimilation measures, including how ‘American’ they feel.
I don’t know if you’re a racist, but all those things don’t necessarily mean you are not.
Oh, ok. They’re protesting the actions of the “radicals” on Facebook, Twitter,and Video chats. Well gee. Excuse me. I’m sure this is going to change the entire culture!
Intelligent response. Maybe you can answer why the billions don’t protest against the supposed few that are making their religion look bad, because your buddies sure haven’t yet been able to explain it.
I mean real protest, and not a facebook or twitter comment or two.
I seriously doubt that anyone suggesting or supporting the things the OP suggests/supports is interested in (or even capable) of rationality.
Is he an utter moron like you, too?
This is complete rubbish. There is no taboo against criticizing religion. What you’re getting roasted for is (a) your equating the membership of an entire religion with the violence of an incredibly small minority of members of that religion.
Just because you’re not a racist does not mean you are not a bigot. The facts in evidence show that you actually are a bigot, just a different flavor of bigotry than racism.
There are Muslims protesting IRL and in public. Your stupidity, prejudice, and willful blindness do not discount that fact.
