Is there any way to stop Islamist terrorism?

Great Debates
1

Part of me is shocked and worried by the fact that the list of countries with planned or successful attacks carried out by Muslim extremists grows ever longer.

I mean, even the shapes of our commercial buildings seem to offend these guys.

Part of me feels that maybe this is nothing new. That before The Wall fell it was Carlos the Jackal and Red Brigades, and the flavour of this generation is extremist Islam.

Now the various leftish extremist groups faded away (mostly) because the Soviet Union fell. But this (despite many claims to the contrary) seems to be a largely decentralized movement.
So how will this end? How could it end? If you were in a position to make decisions about foreign or domestic policy in your country, what would you do to stop these attacks? Is there anything that you can think of that would help?

I’m afraid that this won’t be much of a debate, and that the answer is simply “It won’t end…unless we all convert to a strict form of Islam,” but I’m putting this up here in the hope that I’m wrong.

2

It won’t end.

It can’t end.

The attacks can’t be stopped.

Nothing we do except die or convert will stop the extremists from hating our policies.

3

You can’t stop Islamist terrorism, any more than you can stop political corruption, or sexual predation, or crazed gunmen shooting up schools.

You can, however, contain, mitigate, and minimize these things, by identifying the root causes of these issues and taking the appropriate steps to prevent them from coming to term. And even then you won’t be able to stop them completely; someone will inevitably find a way to slip through the cracks.

But to reduce the question to “Can we stop them, or must we surrender?” is to prevent a false choice. One might as well say that we can’t stop tornadoes and hurricanes from forming, so we may as well evacuate Kansas and Florida.

4

According to the head of the British Army, a big step would be the withdrawl of all troops

5

[QUOTE=Phrontist]
So how will this end? How could it end? If you were in a position to make decisions about foreign or domestic policy in your country, what would you do to stop these attacks? Is there anything that you can think of that would help?
[/QUOTE]

Of course terrorism can be stopped. It has been stopped. Been there, done that. The French have done it. Here’s how:

The French Experience of Counter-terrorism (Warning: PDF file)

So something like that would be my answer to your questions. In short, the solution is intelligence and law enforcement.

Now, the French method is not one that leftists are necessarily going to entirely approve of. Also, that very article in fact states that terrorism is “inevitable and [a] permanent feature of modern life”. But the results speak for themselves as you can read in that article. Has there been even a single loss of life from terrorism on French soil this millennium? Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.

One of France’s main Counter Terrorism experts tells it all

The only thing we need now is for the Americans to shape up and snap out of their current bout of stupidity, ridiculous hysteria and counter-productive war-mongering.

6

IIRC, Bin Laden and his ilk were trained in CIA-camps abroad. At the time, it seemed like a good idea to train the enemies of your enemies, so they’d fight your war for you.
I suggest the CIA stops providing such training. That ought to minimize at least the effectiveness of terrorism in two decades or so.

7

[QUOTE=Frankenstein Monster]
Has there been even a single loss of life from terrorism on French soil this millennium? Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.

[/QUOTE]

You haven’t heard about the French and Algeria’s struggle for independence then?

‘Merciless “café wars,” resulting in nearly 5,000 deaths, were waged in France between the two rebel groups throughout the years of the War of Independence.’

‘OAS operatives set off an average of 120 bombs per day in March, with targets including hospitals and schools.’
(This was in Algeria, but the French ruled it, so it was French soil.)

‘After a series of bloody, random massacres and bombings by Muslim Algerians in several towns and cities, the French pieds noir and urban French population began to demand that the French government engage in sterner countermeasures, including the proclamation of a state of emergency, capital punishment for political crimes, denouncement of all separatists, and most ominously, a call for ‘tit-for-tat’ reprisal operations by police, military, and para-military forces.’

‘The killing by the FLN and its supporters of 123 people, including old women and babies, shocked Soustelle into calling for more repressive measures against the rebels. The government claimed it killed 1,273 guerrillas in retaliation; according to the FLN, 12,000 Muslims perished in an orgy of bloodletting by the armed forces and police, as well as colon gangs.’

‘The most notable manifestation of the new urban campaign was the Battle of Algiers, which began on September 30, 1956, when three women placed bombs at three sites including the downtown office of Air France. The ALN carried out an average of 800 shootings and bombings per month through the spring of 1957, resulting in many civilian casualties…’

‘Massu’s troops punished villages that were suspected of harboring rebels by attacking them by mobile troops or aerial bombardment and gathered 2 million of the rural Muslim population into concentration camps. The publicity given to the often brutal methods used by the army to win the Battle of Algiers, including the widespread use of torture, created doubt in France about its role in Algeria.’

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_War_of_Independence#Death_toll

8

[QUOTE=Phrontist]
Part of me feels that maybe this is nothing new. That before The Wall fell it was Carlos the Jackal and Red Brigades, and the flavour of this generation is extremist Islam.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, the dirty Commies were the Monster of the Week back then. Now, it’s the “Islamists.”

Terror! Terror! Vote Republican!

9

[QUOTE=diggleblop]
Nothing we do except die or convert will stop the extremists from hating our policies.
[/QUOTE]
Conversion won’t work either; the same sort of people love to assault and kill their own people for not practicing Islam the “right” way. So do Christians, for that matter.

10

[QUOTE=glee]
You haven’t heard about the French and Algeria’s struggle for independence then?QUOTE]

But that was SO last millenium darling. :wink:

11

[QUOTE=Frankenstein Monster]
Of course terrorism can be stopped. It has been stopped. Been there, done that. The French have done it. Here’s how:

The French Experience of Counter-terrorism (Warning: PDF file)

So something like that would be my answer to your questions. In short, the solution is intelligence and law enforcement.

Now, the French method is not one that leftists are necessarily going to entirely approve of. Also, that very article in fact states that terrorism is “inevitable and [a] permanent feature of modern life”. But the results speak for themselves as you can read in that article. Has there been even a single loss of life from terrorism on French soil this millennium? Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.

One of France’s main Counter Terrorism experts tells it all

The only thing we need now is for the Americans to shape up and snap out of their current bout of stupidity, ridiculous hysteria and counter-productive war-mongering.
[/QUOTE]

Hmmm. France had an Al Qaida terrorist attack 11 years ago, but none on its soil since*, which is an example of something that “works”.

However, the US had an Al Qaida attack 5 years ago, none on its soil since, but that’s a result of “stupidity, ridiculous hysteria, and counter-productive war-mongering”?

Sorry, but I’m not following the gist of this argument.

*We’re not going to count the attacks on French shipping that occurred this millennium, apparently.

12

Here’s how:

  1. Remove all troops from the soil of majority Islamic nations (MINs). This removes the biggest aggrevating factor.
  2. Raise the standard of living in all MINs. Content people don’t committ suicide bombings.
  3. Transform all MINs into democracies. A people that has options other than violence will use them. Local rebels have a bad habit of bugging margnally involved nations. Bin Laden used to be primarily anti-Saudi, you may recall.
  4. Treat all MINs as equitable partners (as we do Japan or the EU). No coups, no unfair trading, no invasions. Islamic fundamentalism is largely a reaction to the decline of the Islamic world. Fundamentalists decided that the problem is that they weren’t being Islamic enough. If they become a bigger world power, then the impetus to fundamentalism and violence will decrease.
  5. Lawful police work and international cooperation will contain the baseline of crazies that exist in any society.

In that order. Easy, no? :stuck_out_tongue:

13
  1. (No contest)
  2. Most of the 9/11 hijackers were middle-class. Still, economic issues certainly have something to do with it.
  3. Isn’t that what they tried to do in Iraq? Transforming these nations into democracies goes directly against what the Muslim extremists want. They want Muslim nations, which goes fundamentally against their brand of Islam. So it sounds like doing this will just piss them off more.
  4. Equity isn’t good business. Try convincing the corporations to make less money.
  5. (No contest)
14

err…

**“They want Muslim states, not Democractic ones, which go fundamentally against their brand of Islam.”

Still confused as to why this board doesn’t include the Edit button.

15

[QUOTE=Phrontist]
Still confused as to why this board doesn’t include the Edit button.
[/QUOTE]
Because then the less than honest will alter their past posts and claim that they never said whatever stupid thing they erased or altered.

16

In the west we need to keep up the intel and the police work. Most importantly, we need to stop alienating moderate Muslims - the verbal and philosophical attacks on all of Islam on this supposedly liberal board are very worrying, particularly because they seem to be growing on a daily basis. This will not help anything. Support the moderates; get them onside. Help them to help their community; exchange information and intelligence with them. Fund them and protect them (covertly if needed) to start multiple, strong movements to wheedle out and destroy the extremists and the Imams who guide them.

In the middle east we need not to invade Islamic countries on spurious contexts, and not kill - or facilitate the killing of - hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslims.

17

[QUOTE=glee]
You haven’t heard about the French and Algeria’s struggle for independence then?
[/QUOTE]

I was referring to more recent times. Specifically, since 2000. France had a huge wave of Islamist terrorist attacks in the mid-80’s and another in the early 90’s. In response, they went forcefully after the terrorists and rounded up and imprisoned hundreds of them. Also, there are more radical Islamists today than ever but thanks to the forceful counter-terrorism effort they have managed to break up all plots since at least the year 2000.

That’s my reading of the PDF, at least. So this proves that successful counter-terrorism is possible.

Okay, for starters, I’ll give you that it is not unreasonable to argue that the US counter-terrorism effort since 2001 has been effective in preventing further attacks in the US homeland as well as in catching lots of terrorist plots worldwide.

It has also been well documented that there were huge lapses before 9-11. Just like the French had before they got their successful policies instituted. Few people believe that 9-11 could happen today, right? Again proving, if nothing else, that successful conter-terrorism is possible.

By “stupidity, ridiculous hysteria, and counter-productive war-mongering” I was referring to aspects of the American response to terrorism other than the aforementioned. Many people have argued “Stupidity”. “Ridiculous hysteria” you can look up yourself on Redstate.com (or even the Wall Street Journal LTE’s and editorials). War-mongering: the French didn’t invade any country. Counter-productive: this is starting to be widely accepted now, see here for the latest salvo.

18

[QUOTE=JohnT]
*We’re not going to count the attacks on French shipping that occurred this millennium, apparently.
[/QUOTE]

Right, thanks. Unless I’m missing something, I see 3 relatively minor attacks in that list where French nationals have been victims; and none of those attacks anywhere near the homeland. Maybe the record is not perfect but it I think my point stands.

19

[QUOTE=Frankenstein Monster]
Has there been even a single loss of life from terrorism on French soil this millennium? Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.
[/QUOTE]

The millenium’s only six years old, but even so, France is no stranger to extremism…

Hell, there were something like thirty-six attempts on Charles DeGaulle’s life, with everyone from disaffected Foreign Legionnaires to the OAS to Algerian pied noirs trying to assassinate him.

As others have said, I don’t think “Surrendering” and converting to Islam isn’t going to work, as the Extremists will just decide that everyone’s converted to the wrong form of Islam and continue to blow things up in their quest to… blow things up and burn American flags, from the looks of it. A few years ago Communism was the Extremist Cause Du Jour. Now it’s Islam. In a few years it might be Extemist Homosexuals setting off Nude Bombs in the Houses Of Parliament, or Animal Rights groups machine-gunning pet stores to protest the oppression of domesticated animals… angry and disaffected people will always find a cause to rally around, and there’s not much we can do about it except consider ourselves lucky we don’t live in North Korea.

20

I agree with jjimm - infiltration and intelligence - keeping away from tarring all moslems with the same brush.

I certainly don’t agree with Mennochio’s five point plan, attempting to impose democracy on people will just create more wars - and more terrorism.

Keeping out of other people’s business would help, as would slapping people who start sticking their nose in.