If Muslim terrorism is interconnected, how should we act in response?

This thread is a spin-off of this one. If you don’t believe Muslim terrorism is interconnected, please continue the debate that thread.

Assuming that Muslim terrorism is interconnected, our actions should depend on the nature of the interconnections. Various posters have suggested the following: [ul][li]Al Qaeda has been involved in a number of attacks, including Bali, Moscow, and Algeria.[]Allegedly Islam is not a religion of peace.[]Copy-cat actions by Muslims.[/ul]We may get some guidance from two analogies: the battle against worldwide communism and the battle against the Ku Klux Klan. Neither of these menaces was ended quickly or easily. In both cases, the key IMHO was to take these threats very seriously, to make a real commitment to victory, and to persevere. Many strategies needed to be applied simultaneously.[/li]
In order to fight Muslim terrorism, all the following steps might be worth considering:[ol][]Eradicate al Qaeda[]Persuade Muslim religious and secular leaders to take strong stands against terrorism.[]Get a regime change in Iraq, in order to will eliminate a direct threat and to help keep WMDs out of the hands of al Qaeda. This will require military action.[]Get a regime change in Iran for reasons similar to #3. This may possibly be accomplished by supporting opposition leaders.Carry out other strong military steps to make it clear to terrorism-minded Muslims worldwide that terrorism is a dead end. Russia’s action in Moscow is a good example of what to do. Jimmy Carter’s inaction in Iran was a good example of what not to do.[/ol]

[celestina scratching her head]

Um, that’s a TALL ORDER. I’m all for getting rid of al qaeda, but HOW are “we,”–btw, who exactly is “we?”–to do this? If they operate in cells, then getting rid of the top management isn’t going to stop them. How do we locate all the individual cells? We can’t just go up to every Muslim, or person who looks like they may be a Muslim, and ask them if they’re in a terrorist cell. If we profile Muslims, then that’s not going to really help us make any progress, that’s just going to potentially drive a lot of Muslims who sympathize with us away from helping us for fear of being mistreated and further misunderstood.

How do we “persuade” Muslim religious and secular leaders to take strong stands against terrorism?

Um, if we go in with our military to oust the regimes in Iraq and Iran, don’t you think that the folks who live in those countries might have something to say about it? I mean, say we’re successful. Who then replaces the regimes we’ve ousted? Will the Iranians and Iraqis accept someone the US/UN appoints? What about all the feuds and civil wars and things that are sure to arise once the regimes have been taken out? Will the US/UN forces stay to deal with that, or will they leave after stirring up a shitstorm? If we’re not successful, then how do we protect ourselves from the shitstorm that will arise from that.

I’m unclear about the “strong military steps” we’d use. If we can’t locate the terrorist cells because we’ve alienated Muslims out of our ignorance of their cultures and imposition of Westernized ideas that various Muslim cultures don’t understand and fear, then where and to whom exactly will these “military steps” go?

Now I sure as hell ain’t an apologist for any religion or terrorism of any kind. I ain’t no kind of expert in foreign policy–and I’m really beginning to wonder if the folks who’re in charge of US foreign policy have a clue about what they’re doing–but my common sense does tell me a few things. We won’t solve the mess that is TERRORISM–btw, terrorism isn’t just a Muslim thing–by giving into fear. I don’t view terrorism as a vast conspiracy of various groups/cultures out to get the West. I do view terrorism as a complex psychological game. And the folks who lose in the terrorist game are the ones who give in to fear and let themselves be pushed into doing stupid things because they are afraid of what they don’t understand. This isn’t about a revival of the Crusades, or Islam vs. the Christian/Jewish West. That’s what al qaeda wants to scare us into thinking, and they have everything to gain by not only getting the US to believe this bullshit but by encouraging the US to push other Muslims into believing that the West is out to get them. If Muslims think that, then they may be only too ready to join up with al qaeda and other salafist organizations. This is a game where one set of opponents/thugs seeks to gain power through deception and manipulation.

I am not by any means an advocate for the US to be isolationist and not take a role in global matters; however, we have to be realistic. If we spread ourselves too thin out there chasing windmills, meddling in other folks business and telling them how they’re supposed to run their countries and stuff, then that’s not going to help our global credibility, nor will it help us take care of the messes in our economy, health care, education, Social Security, and so on that we’ve got right here in the US.

If my aunt had wheels, how should we go about hiring her out as a trolley-car?

Following an analogy, consider how the US dealt with Jim Crow and its enforcement by various sorts of attacks on African Americans. Although some of the attacks were perpetrated by a single organization, many others were done independently. Perhaps those who viewed these attacks as part of a single entirety were mocked with analogies to aunts and trolley cars. Fortunately, a more far-sighted group steered a different course.

celestina raised several points that I’d like to respond to.

Yes, it is a tall order. It took perhaps 30 years to eradicate Jim Crow. It took 50 years to win the Cold War, while avoiding a nuclear holocost. The battle against this particular segment of Islam also may take a long time.

Who are we? The US and its allies – Europe, Asia, Australia. This segment of Islam is a threat to all of us.

How do we locate cells? A number of cells have been located in the US and in Europe. This requires ongoing diligent investigtion. Methods could include prosecution, getting information from terrorists’ records and from terrorists themselves.

Today, racisism is widely denounced by media, government, religioius leaders, and other institutions, even in areas where Jim Crow once flourished. There may be analogous was to persuade Muslim leaders and Muslim institutions to more strongly denounce Muslim violence.

One thought suggested by another thread is Hate Crime Legislation. IIRC attacking someone because of their national origin is a “hate crime.” In that case, perhaps a Muslim attack on Americans comes under the definition. If not, the law could be broadened to include it.

At the moment I wouldn’t favor a military attack on Iran. The poeple of Iran are quite pro-American. There’s a fair chance that they might replace their government, especially if we provide aid to the reformers.

In Iraq, President Bush has stated his desire to implement a democracy. I’m sure the UN will participate, as they did in Afghanistan. I certainly hope the UN/US forces will stay to complete the job, although it may take decades. The US still has troops in Germany and Japan.

Someone asked President Harry S. Truman what he did if a decision turned out to be wrong. He answered, "I make another decision."

I don’t think there is interconnectedness in much of the terror, save a violent interpretation of a religion. Problem is, the violent fringe is large enough to cause serious problems. In countries like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, or Somalia the fringe is a substantial plurality. Of course, even most of the fringe dwellers do not act on their beliefs.

60 Minutes, hardly a bastion of conservative dogma, did a story which revealed the breadth of the belief that Muslim suicide bombers go to heaven. The story featured young students in the United States.

This obsession with vainglorious death is a problem for not only us, but those who get sucked into a strategy which will not work. It will only increase the violence in response.

Anyone who thinks the Israelis are going to pack up and move - even if the US withdrew its support - are living in a fantasy of their own creation. Israel has its own defense industry, substantial private financial support, and hundreds of nuclear weapons. Moreover, if terrorists strike with greater ferocity on the US they will only get violence back tenfold. Nations which sponsor such terrorists can look forward to a ‘regime change.’

[QUOTE]

In order to fight Muslim terrorism, all the following steps might be worth considering:[ol][li]Eradicate al QaedaPersuade Muslim religious and secular leaders to take strong stands against terrorism.[/li][/quote]

Agreed. Muslim terrorism has gone way too far. We have DAILY muslim murders of civilians. It is time to end this. Getting rid of Al Queda is a good start, but is no means an end to eliminating this evil. No matter what funamentalist Islams say about murdering infidels, it is high time moperate muslims start to speak out about the muderous fundamentalists, rather than whining about feared backlashes.

[quote]

Get a regime change in Iraq, in order to will eliminate a direct threat and to help keep WMDs out of the hands of al Qaeda. This will require military action.[/quote]

Nobody would liked to knock off hussein more than the dictators in most muslim dictatorships. i’m not sure i’m willing to throw 10 thousand ameridans and brits to their graves for this just yet.

[quote]
Get a regime change in Iran for reasons similar to #3. This may possibly be accomplished by supporting opposition leaders.[/quote]

Hrm. I think just leaving Iran alone will bring about a much-needed regime change.

I think you’re being a little hard on Carter… he did take action, a little too late, and unfortunately it ended in disaster, but I see your point. Putin made a no-win choice against muslim terrorists, and won, more or less. It is hard to fight a zero-casualty war against fundamentalst muslin murderers, but Putin did the best he could.

I vote we send december in to negotiate. Five minutes of his debating style and the white flag would be up in desperation.

Ok december, I’m going to try one more time to explain all this to you as clearly as I can. But first I’ll deal with the (just plain silly) steps proposed in your OP:

Wow, you’re a genius. I can’t believe no one else thought of this first. So your idea is we just go ahead and eradicate al Qaeda. Well I stand in awe of your almighty genius.

What do you think the US administration and other foreign governments have been trying to do over the last year?.

If you have any other ideas that we’re not trying then please feel free to suggest them, until then I think it’s best if you keep quiet.

They do, in the main. They have a lot of sympathy for the Palestinian cause, true, but then so do many non-muslims. There’s a few extremist clerics here and there (like Northern Pakistan for example) who talk bullshit but they don’t represent mainstream Islam.

Iraq has fuck all to do with this subject.

You are aware that Iran follows a completely different branch of Islam to Iraq aren’t you? And that both are different to Saudi?

All this will do is persuade the “terrorism-minded muslims” to carry out more terrorism in order to make it clear to you that strong military action is a dead end.

Now as regards the idea of Islam and terrorism being connected in some way. This idea posits the theory of the “muslim mind” and suggests that it would be hard to eliminate the terrorist threat in the Islamic world. Basically, muslims have to follow the Koran to the word. The nature of Islam means that unlike Christianity, it cannot evolve, to adapt to the modern world, as Christianity has. Honour is the most important thing in Islam and as Westerners do not follow the Koran they are seen as dishonourable and deserve to die (hence al Qaeda, etc). Other factors such as poverty, globalisation, oil and the Arab/Israeli conflict all fan the flames of terrorism, but the over riding factor is this muslim way of thinking.
This theory is cobblers. To understand why, you need to look at the bigger picture. Don’t look at all this through the prism of religion, forget religion. You need to consider it in terms of systems and ideas.

Cultural reasons do play a part in the ascendance of Muslim fanaticism. Muslim culture is just as malleable as any other and to equate Islam as a whole with the Wahabbist tradition of the Arabian penninsular is misguided.

In the middle ages, the Muslims were the sophisticated and enlightened culture while Christian Europe was obstructionist and culturally backward, mired in superstition and rigid theocratic dogma. These features were not a product of the faiths themselves but the systems that enveloped them.

So today, the peoples of Muslim countries are ill served by their elites but this is a contingent political issue rather than a necessary doctrinal one.

In the UK, in years gone by (no longer thank God), similar things were said about “the Irish mind”, the “Irish Catholic mind” and how Irish people are “instinctively violent, anarchic, drunk and dirty.”

What, precisely, is contained in Islam which makes it impossible for a Muslim to ‘adapt’ to modernity (which means, presumably, Western science-based consumer capitalism with a sprinkling of representative democracy so long as the latter doesn’t include socialism)?

The “muslim mind” theory says far more about the people who propose it than it does about the “muslim mind.”

It’s not just about poverty, remember many of the poorest parts of the world are mostly Christian, animist, and Hindu. And the poorest parts of the Muslim world (Bangladesh, Indonesia) aren’t the most anti-western.

This is where the “ideas” part of the equation come in. More than anything else, Islamism is an IDEA. Just like neo-liberalism. And it is true that ideas flourish to differing degrees according to the cultural compost they find themselves in - for instance, neo-liberalism appeals to Americans who believe it is anti-state, anti-bullshit, anti-elitist, Thoreaun, semi-scientific and kind without being fluffy. I think that’s complete bollocks, but that’s what its defenders see in it.

And those values are much more important in America, given its own history, than they are in Europe. Similarly, different ideas flourish in France and Britain, or Sweden and Italy, etc etc It’s because the different countries have different histories and different cultural contexts - so different ideas spark off different associations, and are more or less popular accordingly.

Now the one thing that runs through Islamist discourse is the idea of power. As far as I can see, it’s pretty central. The whole thrust of Islamism, from ibn-Wahhab to the present, has been concerned with a return to the golden age of the Abbasid caliphate. Look at the history of Salafism, from its ‘scientific’ early formulation to its doctrinaire modern incarnation, and the one thing that binds the movement together is a desire to reinvigorate the Muslim world by reinvigorating its religion.

This is pretty natural in a culture which once led the world and has since fallen back relative to its neighbours. You saw the same thing in the Christian Spanish reconquistadors of the middle ages, in the Crusaders of Outremer, in the Chinese Boxer rebellion, in the Indian mutiny. Revolutionary movements are not simply attempts to throw off oppressors - they are obsessed with also with building up the free state.

So I would say that there is an Islamist idea, which takes root better in the Muslim world just as the neo-Liberal idea takes root better in America. And I would say that this idea is obsessed with the aim of improving the position of Muslim countries in the world, and that a dash of paranoia has occasionally led some Islamists to believe that the best way to achieve their aims is to kill non-Muslims and people from different Muslim groups. But to extrapolate that extreme minority view into bullshit about the ‘Muslim mind’ is simply cock.

There is no gain to be had in talking about a muslim mind, but much to be lost. Islam is a belief system which has radicals, moderates, conservatives and extremists, just like any other. This just reflects human nature and how it behaves in its environment.

This is the heart of the matter. As far as I’m concerned, if this theory doesn’t apply to “all muslims”, then it’s a nasty piece of sleight of hand to attribute it to ‘the Muslim mind’. It’s passing off a minority idea as a majority tendency.

Once this is admitted, we seem to disappear into circular arguments - “Why is Islamism so popular amongst Muslims? Because it’s building up Islam.” It’s like asking if there’s some unique part of the French mind which makes them get emotional when they hear La Marseillaise playing. Islamism is popular among Muslims, just as fundamentalist Christianity is popular among Christians. But once you realise that it’s just an idea, not a tendency, claims for its grip on the minds of all 1.2bn Muslims slip away.

I know that you are not saying “all muslims are terrorists” but I just want you to get an idea of the kind of minefield into which you are currently headed.

Why would the prescription be any different if the terror events were not interconnected?

  1. We’re doing this.

  2. This actually happened spontaneously, on September 12th. It was in all the newspapers. To encourage its continuance, the State Department hired a real, live Madison Ave. type. One might reasonably argue whether the correct steps are being taken to connect with such leaders, steps are in fact being taken.

  3. Coming soon to a theater of operations near you.

  4. The best thing the U.S. could have done vis a vis Iran was thank them for their condolences following the 11th, do some more trading with them and leave them be. Bush’s inclusion of the state in the “axis of evil,” while not wholly incorrect, was a huge tactical mistake which pushed back moderating forces in the country, perhaps for years.

  5. You should seriously buy a newspaper or something. We’ve got forces on the ground in the Philippines and elsewhere, terrorist leaders and underlings are being arrested around the world, assets are being frozen, &ct.

While it may matter from a intelligence gathering standpoint or even some tactical standpoints, on a big picture basis it matters not a whit whether Al Qaeda is financing Philippine terrorists. Both groups will be eradicated.

So what’s the point here?

E.g., the EU and various European governments could change their rules to permit criminals to be extradited to the US even though they fact the death penalty here. The Europeans could even re-introduce the death penalty.

Jojo, you responded to a different point than I made. I agree with you that few Muslim leaders have taken pro-terrorism stands. However, few of them have taken strong anti-terrorism stands. (On preview, I see Manny agreed with Jojo. Perhaps the two of you are right. Do you have evidence? )

Your warning is well-taken. I’d like to make progress on the question raised in the OP without getting blown up in the minefield, if that’s possible.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/islam021028.html

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by december *
**In order to fight Muslim terrorism, all the following steps might be worth considering:[ol][li]Eradicate al Qaeda[
]Persuade Muslim religious and secular leaders to take strong stands against terrorism.[]Get a regime change in Iraq, in order to will eliminate a direct threat and to help keep WMDs out of the hands of al Qaeda. This will require military action.[]Get a regime change in Iran for reasons similar to #3. This may possibly be accomplished by supporting opposition leaders.Carry out other strong military steps to make it clear to terrorism-minded Muslims worldwide that terrorism is a dead end. Russia’s action in Moscow is a good example of what to do. Jimmy Carter’s inaction in Iran was a good example of what not to do.[/ol] **[/li][/QUOTE]
Wow, there are so many falsities in the OP one hardly knows where to start.

However, let’s assume your ridiculous assumptions are true, and ask how successful your program would be. We could ask, for example, where there has ever been a case of military operations eliminating terrorism. The answer: nowhere. Indeed, if military strikes were effective at eliminating terrorism, Israel would be the safest, most terror-free region on Earth. Yet, somehow it isn’t…

Israel is a very small state, yet even with the world’s third most powerful military and draconian measures, it is not able to “root out” the terrorists and end terrorism even in a very small place with very few targets. The idea that the U.S. will be able to eliminate terrorism world-wide with increased militarization is just insane.

If we are really serious about ending terrorism, though, there are several things we could do. In fact, I could end all anti-American terrorism in one year. Here’s how:

[ul][li]Stop engaging in terrorism. The U.S. is itself a leading terrorist state, with the world’s most advanced and extensive terrorist training camp, the School of the Americas. The largest terrorist operations that are known have been run out of Washington, like the Contra terror war against Nicaragua, the various terrorist operations against Cuba (Operation Mongoose, for one), etc. Furthermore, the U.S. harbors numerous infamous international terrorists, like Orlando Bosch for example, who is responsible for several hundred deaths, including the downing of a civilian airplane killing over 70 people.[/li][li]Withdraw all U.S. military from overseas. The U.S. military has become little more than a world-wide rent-a-cop for multi-national corporations. Why should we pay for that? Furthermore, why should we inflame hatred by projecting military force to protect the interests of the wealthy?[/li][li]Apologize to all of our victims and pay reparations. In 1986 the U.S. was ordered to pay $17 billion in reparations to Nicaragua for its extensive terrorist activities, but the ruling was dismissed with contempt as the U.S. stepped up its terrorist activities. We should apologize to all of our victims in Latin America, the Middle East, Asia, Africa and the Pacific, and pay reparations for the damage we have done.[/li][li]Stop supporting brutal regimes. Most of the hatred for the U.S. stems from our propping up of corrupt and bloody regimes who keep the people down and the profits flowing to the west. End support to Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Turkey, Columbia, Indonesia, Israel, etc.[/li][li]Reduce the war budget. We currently spend almost $400 billion on the war machine, more than the next 20 countries combined. At most 1/10 of this amount is more than sufficient to defend the country in the extemely unlikely event of a military attack. Cut the military budget to $40 billion, put $200 billion into education and social programs, and put the rest into a fund to help the poor around the world.[/li][/ul]
These steps would have the benefit of not only ending anti-American terrorism, but would help us in other ways as well. Without the huge drain of military spending, we would free up resources to spend on useful programs that actually help people instead of killing them.