I don’t buy that cmkeller. You mean God basically acts like a kidnapper, threatening the parents with their children? Not exactly the best role model if you ask me. In fact, that’s probably worse behavior than most terrorists we see today. Sure, they kill people they don’t like, but at least they don’t do it on a scale as large as God does, and they still have a little concern overthe consequences of their actions (you don’t see them bombing kindergardens at least). That just makes you wonder if God is a spoiled terrorist with too much power for himself to handle. Scary stuff…
except Enoch.
I wrote
and then Arnold Winkelried wrote:
OK, so how about this for the T-Shirt?
Killed by God: Everybody in the Old Testament (except Enoch)
Killed by Satan: nobody (not even Enoch)
The Choice is Clear: Satan in '00
…but when you get blue, and you’ve lost all your dreams, there’s nothing like a campfire and a can of beans!
mkeller Member posted 01-25-2000 10:32 AM
I only recall Pharoah being warned, not his subjects.
I suppose another variation of the T-shirt could be a McD-style “[N] killed and counting” (instead of “[N] served”.
The most inexcusable killing, in my book, is the sending of the bears to kill the children who were making fun of Elisha. That’s just evil.
On the subject of murder, why did God never capitally punish the worst mass-murderer in world history, Cain? Cain, in effect, killed one-quarter of the world’s population.
And if we’re counting indirect slayings, better count all those slain by the mythic strength of Samson.
Alright! Fretful, you rock like a hurricane! Unless someone objects, I shall use that answer. How, the next item:
“Entire populations of Sodom and Gomorrah except Lot, his wife, and their 2 daughters (Genesis 19)”
Now, I will include Lot’s wife since a pillar of salt is effectively dead… I mean, even a zygote’s got more life in it than some sodium chloride.
So what might the answer to this one be? Anyone? Bueller?
Yer pal,
Satan
Zor:
What I mean is that he punishes a nation (or a person) in a way that is suitable to its crimes. Have we so soon forgotten that the Egyptians decreed that all Israelite baby boys be drowned at birth (in addition to the brutal slavery that the existing Israelites had to suffer)?
Check out Exodus 4:22-23. G-d is dictating to Moses the message he should give Pharaoh:
“Thus says G-d: Israel is my firstborn son. I have told you to send out my children, and you have refused to do so; thus, I will kill your first-born son.”
However, the Egyptians would have been spared that punishment had they heeded any of the subsequent ten warnings and plagues that G-d sent them.
TheRyan:
The common Egyptians received the message as well. I’ll try to find an explicit source if I can, but there are definitely verses that mention the Egyptian people reacting to words that were spoken by Moses, impicitly meaning that the words were received by them as well.
MaxTorque:
Cain was not aware of the enormity or consequences of his sin, and when G-d made him aware, he repented. Had he been unrepentant, he would have been punished as later sinners had.
Chaim Mattis Keller
MaxTorque: The most inexcusable killing, in my book, is the sending of the bears to kill the children who were making fun of Elisha. That’s just evil.
I’m glad He eased up on teasing bald men. Otherwise, my whole 7th grade English class would’ve been killed for referring to our teacher Mr. Calderone as Mr. Chrome Dome.
On the subject of murder, why did God never capitally punish the worst mass-murderer in world history, Cain? Cain, in effect, killed one-quarter of the world’s population.
It’s just a technicality, but there were other people besides Adam & Eve’s brood. In Genesis 1:24-31, He creates land animals, specifically mankind (Gen 1:26-27). But he didn’t create Adam until Gen. 2:7, after the 7th day.
And if we’re counting indirect slayings, better count all those slain by the mythic strength of Samson.
Who went out and killed 30 people to get their “spoil” to pay his future in-laws after they figured out his stupid riddle. (Judges 14:19) OK, they cheated a little. But man, what a sore loser!
Judges 14:9 - So [Samson] scraped the honey into his hands and went on, eating as he went. When he came to his father and mother, he gave some to them and they ate it; but he did not tell them that he had scraped the honey out of the body of the lion.
Satan:
Boy, it took some digging, but I finally got you your numbers.
NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN THE BIBLE KILLED BY GOD: 1
NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN THE BIBLE KILLED BY SATAN: 14,302,800,212
You’ll need to use a pretty small font if you want to list the names. Also, you might want to asterisk the “1” and footnote it as a suicide mitigated by a resurrection.
AWB:
Why? Was Mr. Calderone a prophet of G-d?
This must be about the fiftieth time you’ve repeated this line in some message thread or another. Once again: you’re incorrect. Genesis 2 does not take place after Genesis 1, but concurrently with it.
Look carefully at Genesis 2:4 - “These are the generations of heavens and Earth when he created it, on the day that G-d made Earth and heaven.”
The bolded phrase clearly states that the story to follow takes place during the previously-described creation tale.
As for Samson: not much to argue with here. He did have a tendency to overreact.
Chaim Mattis Keller
Good points CM, but I’d like to take issue with a couple things…
(You know, I think this thread is heading to GD in a handbasket.)
Killing of all of Egypt’s firstborn: Yes, the Egyptians were the one’s who “started it”, but I doubt that they were unanimously guilty. OTH, the escape rituals (lamb’s blood over door frame) worked for Egyptians as well as Israelites. Still, what about that poor Egyptian 2 year old firstborn whose parents didn’t comply? A blanket killing just doesn’t seem justifiable.
Secondly, the Egyptians wanted the plagues to end before it got that far. Even pharoah was backing down, until…
This turned out to be the case. Case in point: following the ninth plague (darkness), the bible says this…
The Lord our God was dealing from the bottom of the deck. He gave the Egyptians a way out, and then took steps to prevent them from taking it. That deity has some serious issues.
God killed noone. God made man Immortal. It was satan who convinced adam & eve to partake of the fruit of the tree of good and evil. It was Satan, therefore, who decided man should take on mortality. And, this makes Satan responsible for every death since then. put THAT in your pipe and smoke it.
Um, kbutcher, they could’ve just said, “No.” Satan might have done the convincing, but it was Adam and Eve that did the eating. If you want to blame someone, blame them. Mankinds mortality is its own fault.
{If I keep this up, people are going to think I’m a Satan worshipper. I mean, Brian’s a nice guy and all…)
MrKnowItAll:
From my understanding of the Rabbinical commentaries, all the Egyptians were guilty because they derived enjoyment from the seeing the Israelites suffer.
No it didn’t. G-d knows without sheep-blood who’s inside a house. The reason (and again, I’m going with the Rabbinical explanations here) for the ritual of the blood was so the Israelites would show they’re not afraid to defiantly slaughter the Egyptian gods (apparently, the Egyptians worshiped the constellation Aries and, by extension, sheep).
I can’t possibly guess what each specific killed Egyptian newborn did to deserve to die in that plague. All I can say is that G-d decided that this was the only appropriate punishment for the Egyptian treatment of the Israelites. At least he, unlike the Egyptians in their enslavement and drowning decree, gave them several chances to avoid that fate.
This is definitely one of the more difficult scriptural passages. The Rabbis, for the most part, have two explanations for why the Egyptians would be punished even with G-d hardening their (or Pharaoh’s) heart not of their own volition:
-
The Egyptians deserved all ten plagues for their treatment of the Israelites even prior to the first plague. G-d was nice enough to allow them several chances to not receive that full punishment, by releasing the Jews. However, after they refused to do so purely of their own volition during the first five plagues (at that time, the verses just say “Pharaoh hardened his heart”, not that G-d did it), G-d decided they deserved no more chances and forced them (through hardening of the heart) to suffer all the remaining ones without truly having an out.
-
During the first five plagues, simply releasing the Jews would have been enough of an act of repentance to make the Egyptians deserve no further punishment. However, after the repeated refusals, that would not be enough; Pharaoh would have to genuinely regret the evil he did, and not merely release them out of a desire to avoid further plagues, in order for Egypt to deserve to be saved. To allow Pharaoh to do this, G-d strengthened (according to this interpretation, that’s how the Hebrew word in question should be translated)Pharaoh’s heart, to enable him to block out the pain of the plagues and allow him to focus on regret, if he would allow himself to feel it. Alas (for Egypt), Pharaoh didn’t.
Chaim Mattis Keller
Chaim:
Is it necessary to assume , given the heart hardening theory over the heart strengthening theory, that G-d hardened Pharaoh’s heart against his will? I mean, how do we know that G-d did not merley fulfill Pharaoh’s own wish?
Libertarian:
Well, it’s not like Pharaoh couldn’t harden his heart by himself. He did that until the fifth plague. I guess that’s why the assumption is that the hardening was against Pharaoh’s will. On the other hand, the Jewish teachings do say that G-d leads a man down the path the he wishes to be led, so I suppose one could say that this is what G-d was doing with Pharaoh.
Chaim Mattis Keller
ARGH!
This isn’t in great debates, folks.
It’s a general question!
One that applies since in fact God DID kill people in the Bible.
And except for a reference when God hired Satan as his soldier of fortune, Satan didn’t kill anyone!
I am NOT saying God sucks… I am NOT advocating the worship of Satan (though donations are appreciated).
I merely have a clever tee-shirt idea and would LOVE to have a factually correct number on it.
If you wish to have a Great Debate, start a thread there. If you wish to preach, start a thread on LBMB where someone might care.
Other than that, let’s talk about Biblical fatalities caused by God as written, okay?
God bless you all…
Yer pal,
Satan
Well, now, to be fair, you have to give the big G credit for at least a couple of resurrections, too. (Lazarus and Jesus.) Do those count as a credit against his kill total?
Poor Satan. He so wanted to keep this out of GD.
You can’t do a little favor for the Lord of Darkness, Nickrz?
Chaim Mattis Keller
Just to keep the numbers factual (Satan did ask nice!) the 11 for the spies in Numbers is wrong. It should be 10, since both Joshua and Caleb were pro-invasion and hence kept on His good side. (Picked up some choice land as a result, too!)