How many social classes are there in the United States?

Oh please. Those neighborhoods are the minority of the population of the United States. The reality is that if you work hard and make smart decisions, you can better your life. Even coming from the ghetto. There are scholarships, there are loans. So what if you don’t go to an Ivy…go to a state school, they are usually plenty good enough.

I went to a working class school. I had illegal immigrants, kids that had to go to the local church for food every week, kids whose parents never even made it so far as graduating high school. Our school had to cut programs and sometimes had 50 kids in a class with history books that ended with Iran-Contra.

And you know what, a lot of those kids went to college. They didn’t go to Harvard or something, but they went to a Cal State or a community college and got a degree in something. And they’re doing all right now.

Hell, look at yourself, by your own admission you went from a poor, single mother to graduating from a four year university. And you’re STILL complaining about lack of opportunity and crap. Except, you’ve just proven that it CAN happen if someone has the drive to do it.

Geez.

Why don’t you spare us your personal issues?

Not every president of the USA was born the son of a billionare. Jimmy Carter was the son of a farmer and a nurse. Regan was born in a small town in Illinois and attended Eureka Collge. Clinton’s father was an auto parts salesman in Arkansas. Hardly what I would call a “ruling class”.

What disqualifies you from being president is you (and your boyfriends) averageness. By the time a person is old enough to be president, I don’t expect them to be super-rich, but I would expect that would be highly successful in whatever career field they happened to have choosen. Generally, some degree of financial success tends to follow.

The difference between “some college” and an Ivy Legue is pretty big, though. Kids from Ivy Legues go on to do some things, and kids from non-Ivy leagues go on to do others. Kids from state universities and trade schools end up somewhere else completly.

Yes, hard work and talent will occasionally pay off with a better life. I’m not argueing that it is worthless to work. But there are some things that hard work isn’t likely to do anything about, especially when it comes to overcoming a crappy chance at an education as a young child.

BULL SHIT

Show us a cite on that. Anyone with good grades can get into a 4 year college in the US. They might have to work to put themselves thru school, but so what?

More BS. “Pretty big?” You’re kidding if you expect anyone on this board to accept that statement.

There is no doubt that going to a top school can open some doors for you. But if you think an education from UC Santa Cruz, for example, is going to hold you back, you live in a world of self delusion. Hell, I personally know dozens of successful people who got their educations at Chico State and San Jose state. You should be well aware that neither of those schools is hard to get into.

So, basically, you just don’t understand anything about anything. Hey, fantastic.

So state universities and trade schools end up somewhere else completely? State universities and trade schools are somehow on the same level? You’ve got to be kidding me. Kids from Ivy Leagues sometimes go on to do things that are different from kids who go to non-Ivies, a lot of times they do the same thing. Please spare us your whininess until you actually get out in the real world. And this is from someone who’s only been in the real world for about a year.

Hard work most certainly does overcome a crappy chance at an education as a young child. Hard work and smarts. If you have those, you’ll go far.

Sigh. Guys, you’re all getting sidetracked. You’re turning this into a debate about how much social mobility there is in the United States; and within that question, you’re focusing on how hard or easy it is to reach the very top. These questions are important and relevant, but they are not the focus of this thread; maybe a different thread. Social mobility exists, but social classes exist too. And it is a fact that most Americans die in the same class in which they were born.

Look, I’ll give you all a start. The following is from Class: A Guide to the American Status System, by Paul Fussell (New York: Summit Books, 1983), pp. 27-50:

In the concluding chapter, Fussell identifies a tenth class, a “Class X” of declassed bohemians and intellectuals.

I started out talking about the “white overclass” theory of Michael Lind – in Fussell’s terms, the overclass would be the top-out-of-sight, upper, and upper middle classes. Lind is probably correct that these three classes now have merged to the point where they freely intermarry between levels.

Now, as I mentioned early, I find Fussell’s analysis somewhat unsatisfactory as it fails to account for divisions between ethnic subcultures. Also, the book is now 20 years old, times have changed . . . somewhat . . . and I think the whole topic needs to be revisited. So, all of you: What do you think of Fussell’s picture of the American class system? Do you have a better model to offer?

Offhand, I’d say the portrait of the top classes has held, based on all the sotries about coporate CEOS making millions while their companies fail. The upper classes WILL take care of their own, and the devil take the rest.

As for the lower classes, I think the very bottom – what he calls the out-of-sighters and the proles are still the same, though I would argue that a lot of the out-of-sighters aren’t really there because of class but because they’re suffering from untreated mental illnesses, esp. schizophrenia. Schizophrenics have a way of not taking their meds and getting worse instead of better.

I think there’s a tremendous amount of churn between the lower class and the middle class and even into the lower reaches of the upper class. The difference between where you are on the ladder generally has to do largely with whether or not you have a job, and what job you have, and that changes a lot nowadays.

I think a lot of the cultural attributes that go or do not go with the various classes the sociologists have come up with are bogus because they don’t take into account the levelling effects of the mass media. I’ve known people from all walks of life as a writer and editor, and it’s amazing how much commonality of experience they all have thanks to newspapers, radio and TV. I’ve worked with black women working as administrative assistants (i.e., clerks) who liked to politic and spend their free time doing volunteer work at their community theater and who came to me for advice on buying home computers and software. They liked to go on vacation in the Caribbean and be rich American women wooed by the local studs.

I’ve worked with leaders in my state – I mean, the sort of middle-aged white guys who got sent to the Soviet Union when it collapsed to show them how to establish local services and so forth when the central economy collapsed – who liked to politic, drink beer, eat barbecue, chase women and virtually nothing else.

There just aren’t any hard-and-fast rules about class in America in the middle and lower ranges. Too much churn, baby. How people behave is more a matter of what their opportunities are at the moment than anything else.

Maybe because you have yet to prove some sort of case. Basically, you quote guys who can’t even agree on what class is, what defines class - except it may have something to do with economic status, race, ethnicity and habits. You haven’t broken down class, you’ve broken down demographics. There is no clear hierarchy aside from economic ones in the US as there is in other countries, or as there used to be in Europe. And the economic ones are fairly mobile, as are the social ones over time.

“And it is a fact that most Americans die in the same class in which they were born.”

It is? Well I must’ve been sick the day they taught us that “fact” in high school civics class.

Y’know, I’ve looked for some cites on the total amount of inhertied wealth, but I’ve found nothing comprehensive to date – just the Forbes 400 survey, which I’m gonna go way out on a limb here and say is atypical.

My suspicion is that most people who inherit wiealth don’t want it widely known. I am reminded of articles I have read about lottery winners, who are advised to changek their address and get an unlisted phone number and otherwise hide themselves from all the never before seen relatives and firends who would help them divest themselves of their winnings.

In short, I’m wondering if any accurate data on this info is available at all. The census collects nothing on inherited wealth and the IRS has only estate tax records, which apparentlty the really wealthy are able to avoid.

Most of the cites on inherited wealth were clearly politicized pieces, mostly having to do with the proposed repeal of the estate tax, which tended to cite the Forbes survey.

So the Forbes survey is atypical based on nothing but your preconceived notions? That’s nice. Until you have a better cite, that’s all we have.

Maybe, maybe not. How do you know the Forbes data isn’t accurate? You don’t, it just doesn’t fit with your arguments. Come up with something better or stop making the argument.

Second, the really wealthy aren’t able to avoid the estate tax better than anyone else. In fact, it’s almost impossible for the really wealthy to avoid the estate tax since the main way to avoid it is by manipulating the exemptions. The really wealthy can knock down how much they have to pay on it, but avoid it? Not really. It’s much easier for the moderately wealthy or upper middle class to avoid it since they are more likely to be able to have their assets moved under the exemptions.

All with proper estate planning, of course. If you don’t plan, then you get hit hardest of all no matter who you are.
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Again, find a better one or accept those. And just because they disagree with your preconceived notion doesn’t make them “politicized” anymore than cites showing that all wealth is inherited is “politicized.” Either get some new cites with raw data, or accept what we have, which is the conclusion that while inherited wealth makes up probably a majority of the wealth in the country, it is likely not a “vast majority.”

Posted by John Mace:

You don’t have to try to remember back to your high-school civics lessons, John. (And in any case, if those lessons even touched on the nature of the American class system, I would be very surprised.) We’ve already covered this question in this thread. See the above post by MrVisible, which cites to statistical studies showing that the degree of social (or, rather, economic) mobility in the United States is very limited, and that most people will remain at roughly their parents’ income level, for life.