Aldebaran, that’s the best, most even-handed explanation of the “72 virgins” nonsense I’ve read. You’re getting good at this “fighting ignorance” stuff!
72 virgins would keep me happy for 2 1/2 months. What to do with the rest of eternity, I wonder?
72 grapes would interest me for a lunchtime.
I never said that I equate Jihad with terrorism, mind you. I’m just going by what the terrorists were thinking, or what we’ve been told they were thinking. We’ve all heard the story that the terrorists did what they did to get some poontang in the afterlife. Whether that story is right or wrong, I wanted to nail down one small part of it. You seem to be taking as a personal attack.
In the Quran, many of the references to the ‘female companions’ one might expect to be rewarded with in Paradise include a description of their eyes. Wide eyes, dark eyes, lovely eyes, doe eyes – nothing else about their physique, that I know of, but often something about their eyes. Now, I know very little about ideas of female beauty in Arab culture, and much less at the time the Quran was recorded. Are or were wide, dark eyes considered particularly beautiful? Or was it perhaps that the companions’ eyes were the only part that was considered appropriate to discuss, and the reader was left to imagine how beautiful the rest of the companions might be if they had such beautiful eyes?
I understand that the Quran forbids the killing of innocents and forbids suicide, and that tolerant Muslims share this interpretation. But it’s also important to understand that the people who do kill innocent people (according to the majority view of what an ‘innocent’ is) in suicide attacks cannot believe they will be punished for doing so. Though my knowledge is limited, it would seem that the only way to do this would be to first to use a different concept of an innocent person, then to justify suicide by calling it martyrdom. In the minds of violent radicals, a child is not innocent because they will grow up to be an adult, and a non-combatant is not innocent because they are, at least, a sinner and disbeliever, and at most, supporting the United States and Israel as metaphorical combatants. (UBL seems to take a 'kill 'em all, let God sort ‘em out’ philosophy with respect to killing innocents; he apparently believes that even if faithful Muslims are killed in an attack, they will just go to Paradise sooner and collect a greater reward.) Also, potential terrorists would not consider themselves suicides, and in fact do not refer to suicide, but consider themselves martyrs. Suicides are punished, but martyrs are rewarded. (Whether one can make oneself a martyr is a different issue entirely, but clearly radicals must believe that they can.)
As all religious texts are subject to interpretation, there are Quranic interpretations that forbid terrorism (the interpretation used by tolerant Muslims) and interpretations that encourage it (the interpretation used by radicals). Someone with an intolerant worldview, or someone who desires personal power, can easily read the Quran in such a way as to justify violence and terrorism. The same could probably be said for other religious texts. The crucial element is not so much the religious beliefs used to justify violence, but a group of people preaching these beliefs, and a group of people willing to listen. Being subjected to these beliefs, otherwise dejected people can believe that they can really make a difference and collect an immense reward.
There are dejected and oppressed people all over the world, though, who do not resort to, or support, suicidal terrorism in order to achieve their goals. To understand why some people do requires asking some difficult questions that are outside the scope of this forum.
Nope. They get 1/72nd of a man. Kind of a raw deal for them. 
Since there’s already an excellent description of the myth and its origins, I’ll try to answer why the number 72 is so specific. tdn is on the right track by noticing that 89=72 (or was it 79 
) but even more probable derivation is the product of 6*12. These kind of texts, especially mystical or numerological ones, favor simple multiples. This means that 72 is very nice number since it’s the product of two different multiplications, totally unlike numbers like 71 or 73 which are primes and thus aren’t worth of particular interest. Now if you’re writing religious mythology and suddenly are in need of a number of about this magnitude, I’d say 72 is a very neat number to choose over those less remarkable.
Going further with these multiplications we note that 6^2=36, 12^2=144 and 6^3=216. All these products have some particular signifigance for numerologically inclined, and we’ll get 72 from any of them by simply multiplying or dividing it by 2 or 3. And finally we could use base-12 system where powers of 12 such as 144 or 1728 are used. I hear some people still use a measurement system which is partly base 12. Here we note that the ‘10’ of this system is number 12 and ‘100’ is 144, thus making 72 the ‘50’ of base 12. In this system, that was AFAIK commonly used in some cultures of the ancient, numbers like 36, 72, 108 or 216 are round numbers, and therefore they will show up more in a culture that utilizes 12 instead of 10 as its number base.
So, all of the above should make clear for anyone who believes that 3 or 7 are somehow “lucky” numbers while 13 and 666 mystically “unlucky”, that there is something very magical with the number 72. Of course 60 could’ve done too, or maybe even 77 in certain circumstances, but for a mythology 72 certainly wasn’t a bad choice.
:eek: Boys? Are you sure you want to call attention to that? (Does NAMBLA have a Muslim Outreach chapter?)
Now, now, BrainGlutton, no need to jump to conclusions… translators from times past in the West have referred to the boys as “cup-bearers” – and that is a point to be made: all that is really written in the Qur’an is that the company you’ll keep in paradise is very, very pleasant. The extrapolation to the idea that it is "Eternity at Plato’s Retreat()" is the result, as Aldebaran said, of taking what was an attempt to render it in allegorical terms, and getting hung up on a literal reading of the concept, without bothering to seek the deeper meaning (or deliberately avoiding to do so, in the case of preachers of terrorism).
[()Famous sex-swingers club in 1970s NY, for all you young’uns and sheltered-life older ones]
You lack stamina.
Or imagination.
Aldebaran, I’d very much like to ask your advice about a conversation in which I’m participating on another message board; if you’re willing, please could you email me? - themangetout (at) hotmail (dot) com. Thanks.
JRDelirious: I’d agree that it’s probably meant as a metaphor for ‘very, very pleasant’, with a lot of hyperbole explaining in earthly terms how pleasant it would be. Another part of the reward decribed in the Quran is that there are unlimited supplies of clean water. For someone used to struggling to find clean water in a desert, this would be a great luxury. The basic message is that a virtuous life (IIRC faith alone is not sufficient in Islam) will be rewarded with unimaginable luxury and comfort.
The strictly literal interpretation appeals to single young men trying to prove themselves, which is the group radicals most want to reach. It may appeal much less to an older married man who would rather spend eternity with his family than with any number of virgins; and if the afterlife is meant to be a reward, then you’d have to assume that he’d be rewarded according to his desire.
How about the gay warrior? Imagine him sitting, looking disgusted, wearing a tee shirt emblazoned with:
I DIED FOR ALLAH, AND ALLAH I GOT WERE THESE 72 WIMMEN
Yeah, yeah. In Greek mythology, the boy Ganymede was Zeus’ “cup-bearer,” but everybody knew what that really meant.
So…give a man 72 grapes and he eats for a day; give a man 72 virgins…?
Eurograff hit on something that has intrigued me about these sorts of numbers: not only that they’re often multiples of each other, but looking at their prime factors often kicks out some interesting relationships.
In the case of 72, it’s not only 98 (which doesn’t seem all that significant), but it’s also 3[sup]2[/sup] * 2[sup]3[/sup], or 2323*2. That carries an interesting symmetry to me…but I’ve no idea if that’s what caused it to be chosen for the virgins.
And he eats for two and a half months. Sheesh, where you been?
I also have to wonder about getting 72 perpetual virgins. How do they stay perpetually virginal? Am I looking at an eternity of blue balls here?
X-men style mutant healing powers?
No, of course, now the thread is going in the direction of absolute irreverence, but part of the mythical concept of the houris (hourim?) is that these are not mortals/humans, they are heavenly creatures with heavenly properties. One of which, in some of the fancier explanations, is that their virginity regenerates overnight :dubious:
It’s probably again allegorical as to how once in Paradise nobody ever grows jaded or bored and every experience feels fresh and new and full of possibility.
Ah, the eyes of a beautiful woman. They are always large and dark and appear vulnerable. I would imagine that in Arabic cultures at the time of writing, that all a young man would be able to go by in order to access the degree of beauty of the extremely clad girl next door was to look at her eyes.
No virgins screw in a light bulb, or any other place. 'Cause they’re, duh, virgins. :smack:
Think about it though. When I contrast sex with the one virgin I knew against that with experienced partners, the virgin doesn’t stand a chance. Give me 72 ladies who know what they like and aren’t afraid to talk about it. 
Going slightly OT,but IIRC one of the rewards in heaven is allegedly ‘wine delicious to the drinker’.Alcohol is strictly forbidden for Muslims on Earth,so what suddenly makes it acceptable in heaven?And will other things forbidden on Earth will be allowed on heaven?Will Paradise provide pork chops?Will adultery or bigamy or homosexuality be allowed there?