How much can churches discriminate

Factual Questions
1

I heard on the news that GW Bush would veto a bill, if it passed, that would prohibit discrimination against gay people.

The news also said even if it did pass it wouldn’t apply to churches or the military

So my question is just how much can churches discriminate? I mean supposing it’s a black church that doesn’t want to hire white people or the reverse.

Does freedome of religion triumph civil rights

I recall in my youth working my way through collge I had a job as an operator at a Catholic hospital and before I got the job the lady said “you will be required to pray at all meetings.” I didn’t much care though I wasn’t Catholic so I never made a big deal about it. But could I have?

2

Generally speaking, if religion is not a fundamental part of the task, it is not relevant to your hiring and or job duties. A church receptionist in the office of a large church could easily be a gay pagan neonazi. As long as he answers the phones and directs people politely and properly, they technically cannot demand he/she be of the churches religion. Such things are normally circumvented by trying to hire existing members of the church before trying to hire outside.

3

Speaking to Federal employment law, Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the law that establishes non-discrimination in employment based on race, sex, religion, and national origin, churches do have some leeway to discriminate.

For starters, the law only applies to organizations that have 15 or more employees and engage in interstate commerce, broadly construed. Plenty of churches are smaller than that, thus not covered at all.

Churches, even large ones, and many other religious organizations also are allowed to require adherence to their faith. They don’t all make that requirement for all positions, but in fact the law makes provisions for them to do so when reasonably justified.

Here’s the relevant exemption from the Act.

"(e) Notwithstanding any other provision of this subchapter, (1) it shall
not be an unlawful employment practice for an employer to hire and employ
employees, … on the basis of his religion, sex, or
national origin in those certain instances where religion, sex, or
national origin is a bona fide occupational qualification reasonably
necessary to the normal operation of that particular business or
enterprise, and (2) it shall not be an unlawful employment practice for a
school, college, university, or other educational institution or
institution of learning to hire and employ employees of a particular
religion if such school, college, university, or other educational
institution or institution of learning is, in whole or in substantial
part, owned, supported, controlled, or managed by a particular religion or
by a particular religious corporation, association, or society, or if the
curriculum of such school, college, university, or other educational
institution or institution of learning is directed toward the propagation
of a particular religion. "

There is currently no federal protection for homosexuals with respect to employment discrimination. There are some local laws that do offer some protection, and it would depend on the wording of those specific laws whether churches were excluded or exempt.

AFAIK, churches that are large enough to be covered by the law do not have any more leeway to discriminate on race than any other organization. Note that race is NOT mentioned in the excerpt from the Act. They do seem to be able to discriminate based on sex where the religion holds that only men can fill certain roles.

4

Freedom of religion is a civil right in and of itself.

5

Any religion can have it’s own rules.
Like women are subserviant to their husbands and are not equal. Or a Woman can not be a priest.

Or, gays not allowed. If gay marriage was legal, that would not mean that a gay couple could walk into any church and ‘make’ that church perform the cermony. The state has no business telling a church how to operate.

Just as a church has no business telling a state how to operate.

6

I don’t think that’s quite true, as Harriet’s post indicates. The state can’t tell the church how to run their religion, but they do have some say over their business practices, including employment issues.

Your marriage example gets into two separate parts of marriage. There’s the civil part governed by that piece of paper you get from the state which means you and your spouse will have certain rights and obligations and legal issues and so on. There’s nothing in that part that has to involve any particular religion or in fact any religion at all, and no church has any say in the matter. Then there’s the religious side - a church is free to set their rules for what they will recognize as a valid marriage, and the government can’t force them to recognize your relationship within their church.

7

I think the legality has been set out pretty well. Although this is questionable for GQ, just wanted to add a recent observation of my wife’s that I found interesting: she suggested that one of the reasons organized religion is so popular in the US may be that it is one of the few areas in which public discrimination is permitted/tolerated.

8

Just like how, right now, marriages between people of two different religions are legal, but that doesn’t mean that an interfaith couple can come into an Orthodox or Conservative synagogue and demand that the rabbi perform the ceremony for them.

9

But can they require you to be a good Baptist or Methodist or Catholic, or whatever? If a gay person was hired by a church that didn’t allow homosexual relations couldn’t the person just say, “I’m a sinner, and I know the Lord will forgive me.”? The church doesn’t peek into your heart to see if you’re coveting the ass of your neighbor’s wife, does it? If they fired every church employee who committed a sin, who would have a job?

10

Employees of churches and church-related schools are often fired for morality infractions.

11

It might help to consider a situation in which you would see the religion involved as doing the right thing, as well as cases in which you believe they are doing the wrong thing. Consider for example, an antebellum religion/denomination/sect that believed slavery was evil, such as the Quakers. Should they have been required to hire slave holders?

The hospital job is trickier. There are some Catholic run hospitals around here, and I recall a controversy over whether they had to offer services counter to their teachings, such as abortion. I actually don’t recall how that came out.

12

The way Federal law stands right now, any company can fire an employee for homosexual relations-a church, Kwikee Mart, ACME Megacorp. Under employment at will, an employee can be fired for any reason or no reason, as long as it’s not because of a legally protected characteristic. Homosexuality does not have that legally protected status. (As noted earlier, some local laws may provide that legal protection).*

Adultery also is not protected, nor are many other behaviors considered to be “sins”. In general, if your employer wants to fire you for behavior that falls under the heading of “sin” as defined by Christian churches, federal law doesn’t have a problem with it. Some states do protect legal behavior away from work, that usually comes into play in reference to smoking.

What non-church employers can’t fire you for (and in fact must reasonably accommodate) is religion, as in religious belief or lack thereof.

  • This should not be taken as my saying this is the way the law should be, or that this is a good way for an employer to run their business. I’m just clarifying what laws are in place.
13

I am on the committee to find a new pastor for our church. Many members of the committee were talking about how they wanted a “young” pastor and definitely not a female.

We had the director of the local conference in to answer some questions, and I asked him about the legality of age and gender restrictions. He said that as a church, we were exempt from the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and could have basically any criteria we want. If we wanted only white married males under age 40 then we could advertise that, and it wouldn’t be illegal.

I’m not advocating discrimination, I’m just stating what I was told.

And on the face of it, it makes sense. If we are a Baptist Church and an athiest applied for the senior pastor position, could he sue us for discrimination based on his religion???

14

Your church probably has fewer than 15 employees, which would also exempt it from the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

15

But I’m sure that with the modern definitions, the church would engage in interstate commerce.

An argument could be made that if churches discriminate against minorities then they will travel less, thereby affecting the national economy, etc. That was the central argument for the constitutionality of the 64 Act.

How does a restaurant in Nome, AK affect interstate commerce? Well, I could get on a series of airplanes and dine there. It is a tenuous connection at best, but it has been used as federal justification for a host of interference in the past 70 years…

16

You are in the clear on the atheist. The passage quoted above explains that religion can be a bona-fide occupational qualification, and if not for a pastor, then for whom?

I have not seen anything to convince me a church is exempt from the race part of the act, unless perhaps the church has fewer than 15 employees, in which case it could be exempt because it is small, not because it is a church. Whether the pastor is employed by the church itself or by the conference might come into play to determine the number of employees.

Gender for a large church employer might come down to whether your church believes being male is a BFOQ to be a pastor. We obviously aren’t seeing female Catholic priests.

And age is a separate law, which seems to be unclear in its application to churches. Employees are bringing suit against churches under the Age Discrimination in Employment Act, though, so discriminating based on age doesn’t seem to be without risk. Even a suit that you win or eventually get dismissed is not without cost.

HR is often about knowing where the law is muddy and taking or avoiding risks according to the mission of the organization.

ETA: It is 15 employees AND interstate commerce, not OR.

17

I was told by this director that the pastor is not actually employed by the church or the conference. He is an independent contractor and given a 1099 at the end of the year.

Again, this is just what I am told, and not vouching for the accuracy of it, but the guy does seem to know his stuff.

BTW, thanks for the clarification re: interstate commerce. So, a convenience store with 12 employees can post a “Help Wanted” sign in the window with the words “Jews and Blacks need not apply” right below it??? Wow…

18

Deleted

19

:rolleyes:
Heterosexual couples don’t have that power now. What makes you think gay couples would? The pastor decides who he/she will or won’t marry and cannot be forced to perform a ceremony.

20

But Zebra said, “that would not mean that a gay couple could walk into any church…” You’re agreeing with Zebra’s point.