Please quote them, with dates if you can. I will accept paraphrases, and I don’t require “hard” cites. In addition, provide a list containing some of who you think the current black leaders are in this country. I can’t address what you’re saying without that information.
I’m going to be honest here. When I walk home alone at night (I’m a woman) there is a business that I’m always a little wary to pass and I usually try to arrange to be on the other side of the street. It’s a Chinese restaurant with a large Black clientele and they often spill over in to the sidewalk, which can see menacing to walk through. One day I noticed that I was doing this, and also noticed that moving across the street made me walk through a nearly identical crowd of Asians waiting for a popular Korean restaurant. Then I realized my little plan was totally rediculous.
Yeah, but when you define “dressed poorly” as “dressing in popular Black fashions”, that’s racism. Racists arn’t in it because of some fear of melatonin. It’s ultimately about culture. “Love the sinner, hate the sin” is no longer considered compassion.
Nope, sorry. They are two bars and a a hamburger place, on a strip of dive-bars, nail salons, Chinese restaurants and liquor stores. One of the targetted bars appears to cater to the over-30 pearl and elaborate hat wearing set. They are nowhere near the trashiest places around, but they are- with pinpoint accuracy- the last noticably Black businesses in the area. There are other Black-owned businesses, but none with a largely Black clinetal.
Hell, the fact that this town has such rediculous things as “Black Chinese restaurants” is a sign that things really havn’t progressed too far.
Or, more charitably, they don’t have access to good childcare to keep their kids out of trouble. They don’t have access to health care to diagnose and treat behavoiral and mental problems. They don’t have access to tutors and science camps and SAT prep classes. Their kids work afterschool to help out with rent and watch their siblings, limiting their extra-cirriculars. They can’t get an intership at their father’s firm. They don’t get books and art supplies and science kits for Christmas because they don’t get much for Christmas at all. Their schools don’t offer honors classes.
There are a million little things that make getting a good education a little bit harder. Each one of these ont heir own isn’t insurmountable. But as a whole, it’s a formidable task.
Do you see the logical problem here? Essentially you’re acknowledging what I said - that a particular behavior was used explicitly in the past with the purpose of excluding black people - and then, in a day and time where explicit racism is not sociall acceptable, you acknowledge that it continues - but even though back then, when they did it, it was because of racism, now it’s because of something else.
Please.
I’ve done so already in this thread. Now how about you: you’re essentially claiming that even though racism was enshrined in law a generation ago, it has since magically disappeared. How about you provide evidence? It doesn’t seem to me all that outrageous to suggest, given that racism was universal and legally-mandated forty years ago, that it probably still exists today.
You have been arguing as though from an axiom throughout this whole thread that racism is gone, but that’s by far the more extraordinary claim. Evidence has already been proffered to the effect that racism still exists - how about you provide some evidence for your unusual claim?
You’re dodging the question again. Why does the “underclass” account for so much larger a percentage of black people? The trouble with your argument here is that it depends on equating the situations of black people and white people - even when you acknowledge that they aren’t equivalent. If the “black underclass” exists for the same reason as the “white underclass”, then logically it should account for the same percentage of the black population. But it doesn’t. Explain, please.
Yeah? So? Someone, somewhere will likely charge you with some sort of -ism for anything you do. Others will claim that you’re part of the educated stupid conspiracy to hide knowledge of Nature’s Harmonic Simultaneous 4-Day Time Cube. But you haven’t proven that whacky fringe groups are a problem, have you? You’ve already admitted that your whinging about how no one can criticize Jesse Jackson was baseless, as people do, all the time. The logical problem with all of this disenfranchised white man whining is that when you and the guys on talk radio whine about how no one can criticize Jesse Jackson, you’re disproving your very point by doing so.
You haven’t even presented an argument to suggest that these apparently constant charges of racism are a problem (nor have you presented evidence that they exist in the first place.) People make baseless accusations like that all the time. You seem to be implying that somehow these charges of racism influence policy or stifle debate, but you haven’t proven it.
In summary, if some black people make false charges of racism, so the fuck what?
Sorry, but just because a practice was prevalent in the past half-century does not mean it is still prevalent. Anti-semitism was quite prevalant in the past. It is not anymore. Your argument that people are discriminated against because of their skin color, and not because of cultural characteristics, is a serious charge and needs to be backed up. Most of the “evidence” you present shows that blacks have disproportionately negative things happening to them. I say that once you look at those numbers you will see that is because blacks are disproportionately a part of the underclass and their actions reflect that.
My evidence is that there is no evidence that systematic racism exists. See above.
Not necessarily. Just because the culture of the black underclass and the white underclass is the same doesn’t mean that they will affect each group in identical ways. From what I have read, much of the black underclass has its roots in the culture of poor Southern whites. Since that is where blacks were concentrated, then of course it will affect them more than the white population overall. And blacks were concentrated in the South because of slavery. So I guess that it is all due to slavery after all. Fine. It’s certainly not racism that is keeping this culture alive, though.
When was the last time you had a liberal politician who stood up to Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton (all I can think of is Bill Clinton’s Sista Souljah moment)? When has this country ever had a rational debate over affirmative action? When has this country had a rational debate over race?
Of course baseless accusations of racism affect public policy. They stifle any true discussion of the issues, because any time a public official dares to point out the problems in the black community (as Moynihan did in the 60’s), he’s called a racist. And politicians, being weak, back down as soon as that word is hurled at them.
Who is doing that? I define “dressed poorly” as looking like a slob. Again, another example of jumping to label something racist that is not.
Ensign Edison, some examples of what I’m talking about, off the top of my head:
Cynthia McKinney crying racism when she slapped a cop
Jesse Jackson (2001) crying racism when Toyota ran an ad with a black man with a Toyota outline in his tooth.
Jesse Jackson and his ilk charging that the Duke lacrosse rape drama is due to racism.
Al Sharpton and the whole Tawana Brawley situation.
Jesse Jackson (2000 or 2001) charging racism when a bunch of black kids got in trouble for getting into a fight at a football game
The NAACP accusing Bush of being racist for refusing to sign hate crimes legislation when he was Governor
Rep. Maxine Waters continuing assertions that the CIA is responsible for crack
Those are off the top of my head. With more time and research I could find many more examples of this type of ridiculous behavior.
You stated that “many black leaders throw around the charge of ‘racism’ way too much.” but in the examples you give above you cite Jesse Jackson three times and you also cite the NAACP. I do not consider an organization to be a leader. Regardless, is it okay for me to assume that the people listed above are who you think of when someone says “black leaders in america”?
I took the time to do some digging into your home district of DC. You should browse through the Parents United for the DC Public Schools site. Additionally, after flipping around old articles from the Washington Post, it seems that the school district in Washington DC is somewhat of an anomaly. Districts around the nation get their money from taxes. The last time I checked, property taxes in the ghetto are not that high. The influx of funding that you have witnessed is relatively recent. School districts run K-12 and you are not going to see huge sweeping changes in test scores over the course of five years. If you still do not believe that money matters with regards to schools, you should consider talking to some teachers. I honestly do not understand how you can believe that money does not matter when your arguments continually cite the prevalence of classism.
I am completely with you on this one. This is one of the main reasons that nothing can be accomplished in this country. It is very difficult to achieve progress when people get offended everytime that someone evaluates a situation thoroughly.
Again, that list was off the top of my head. And since Jesse Jackson was pretty much the black leader up until the late 1990’s, I don’t think it’s unfair to cite him numerous times.
One, DC does not rely on property taxes for its school funding.
Two, DC gets a huge amount of its funding for schools from the feds.
Three, property taxes in DC are very high and there are some very high value homes/offices there.
No, it’s not.
The DC school system has sucked for at least fifty years. They have poured money into it that entire time. It still sucks.
I used to work in education policy and I talked to many teachers. Their answer was always a call for more funding. Most are completely opposed to changing any aspects of education policy except to increase funding. I am less than impressed with what teachers have to say on what will improve education. They are too wedded to the current failing system to have any good ideas (in general).
Again, if you have a culture that does not value education and success (as is the case in DC), then you will have crappy schools regardless of how much money is poured into them.
But none of those studies take into account the fact running a school in DC (and most other poor, urban areas) is more costly for a variety of reasons. Higher teacher salaries, more bureaucracy, more maintenance, higher utility bills, etc.
In addition, they don’t take into account all the “soft money” that gets pumped into rich suburban schools that affects students. Those parents pay for tutors, SAT prep, books, vacations, plays, museums, etc. All these things broaden a students horizons and contribute to their overall education.
Rich parents pay for team uniforms, better buildings, and for houses in neighborhoods with shootings, drug dealers, and prostitution. All these things influence a person’s “education”. Looking at a raw stat that doesn’t even adjust for the actually amount of money that’s involved in developing the intellectual and moral faculties of the children in a given school system does nothing. Even discounting the environmental factors, the direct contributions rich people make in the name of their children’s education would far exceed the discrepancy in any per student spending that exists. I generally agree with the point you were making, but your funding justification is flawed. More money, when actually spend on students, usually improves the education they receive in school.
I don’t know if i disagree with this, but I’d like to see Stephen Levitt tackle this one in a new Freakonomics book.
I’d venture to say that it’s a matter of degree, not whether or not it actually occurs.
Well yeah, I’m not saying every dollar spent means a proportionally higher average test score, just that it helps. Also, I think Levitt is highly overrated.
No, but it does make your wholly unsupported assertion that it has disappeared completely seem a bit unlikely. Like I said, you’ve been arguing this like it’s an axiom - but it’s not. Why would racism have suddenly and magically disappeared after existing for so long?
Actually, if you read the studies Monstro and I described, both were instances in which people’s skin color was the sole factor (or, in the case of the names, names associated with a skin color) that led to people being the targets of discrimination. Lots of other such research exists, though it’s not my field of expertise - so how about we go about this in a productive way? How about you provide some cites to prove your assertions, hmm? After all, it was you who implied in Post #3 and fully stated in Post #11 that racism is no longer a real issue.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Some evidence has been offered to you in this thread already, so you don’t even have absence of evidence to hang your hat on at this point.
I know it’s considered a matter of settled fact for a lot of white people that racism is basically a historical problem. Why won’t any of them try to prove it? All we get is more and more rhetoric asking everyone to accept a position that, for the reasons I’ve outlined above, is actually pretty extraordinary.
I’m afraid I can’t even parse your point here. Why are black people poorer? Why is black culture broken? Why do you keep trying to obfuscate without offering up answers? Whatever your geographical argument is here, it doesn’t make any sense. If you could flesh it out and come up with evidence to support it, it might help.
We’ve been having debates over affirmative action since it started. Again, you trickily try to slide in an assertion - that affirmative action has never been the subject of “rational debate” - without defining your terms, making your arguments, or providing evidence. So go for it. Do so. You keep harping on how it’s impossible to talk about these things without being branded a racist - so take Ensign Edison up and prove it! Until then, as far as I’m concerned, you’re basically repeating the mindless and increasingly tired rhetoric of talk radio hosts and their ilk.
And what is a “rational debate over race”, anyway? What’s to debate? Yes, Virginia, there are black people. I can’t even guess at what you mean with this sentence, since a debate over the existence of black people seems unlikely.
You keep saying it, but you also keep refusing to provide evidence.
Again, prove it! Find evidence that this magic word, “racist”, is stopping all debate. You have repeated this mantra over and over, but you have yet to come up with any reason why anyone should believe you. Is this the George W. Bush school of public debate? Repeat it enough and it magically becomes true? Because you’re making a huge assertion here, and it’s one that you show no signs of being able to back up. It’s certainly something I’ve heard before - but as has probably become clear, I’m not interested in hearing the same rhetoric repeated in different words. I want evidence.
You came up with some examples! Finally! Now comes the hard part - explain how exactly these things stifled public debate. Because you’ve been claiming, over and over, that black people cry racism and that somehow this magic word prevents rational debate from occurring. Did Cynthia McKinney, for instance, win in the end? Did anyone rise to her defense?
If all you can prove is that a few public figures have said a few nutty things, then you got nuthin’. Read over my last few posts. Like I said, people say crazy things. But you seem to think that “black people crying racism” is somehow at the heart of some sort of societal problem. You haven’t even really specified your assertion, which is probably a sign of how weak your argument is, let alone have you proven anything. Like I said - so some black people falsely accuse others of racism. Yeah, and most of them, like Cynthia McKinney, get roundly ridiculed when they do. You haven’t even come close to supporting your claim that this is somehow preventing reasoned discussion of racism. In fact, judging by this thread at least, it seems fair to say that “whiny white guys talking in vague hypotheticals about black people crying racism” are the real problem that’s preventing rational debate from taking place.
But it won’t matter until you can prove something about it. So far you’ve offered up evidence that some black people have sometimes offered up spurious accusations of racism. You still haven’t explained why you think that’s something I should care about.
Feel free to substitute him with another insightful mind if you wish. I’d still like to see someone figure out whether or not it’s true and what the extent of it is.
An interesting log to throw into the fire, courtesy of the Omaha School Board’s proposal to split the school districts into three segments, one white, one black, one latino:
Excalibre, as I explained above, the studies you mentioned are flawed and have been exposed as such (by Levitt, as I pointed out). There is simply no credible evidence that racism is holding anyone back. Again, racists certainly exist and their actions hurt black people. But there is no systematic system of opression holding back black people any more. The underclass is holding itself back, and blacks are disproporationately respresented in the underclass, but that is certainly not racism.
As far as how the false charges of “racism” hold us back, let me say that I’m not talking about the media. I’m talking about the government. The Congress won’t have a debate about ending federal set-asides for minorities because they would be called racist if they did. There will be no Senate hearings on why the underclass culture is so destructive because the charges of racism would fill the air. There can be no dialogue about how our public policy can affect race because of these charges. Of course people in the media can talk about racial issues, but that will never translate to the public policy arena as long as black leaders whip out the race card to trump everything else.
As far as a good book on the link between the black and white culture, read Thomas Sowell’s Black Rednecks and White Liberals.
So when my buddy, a US born straight A student, was placed in remidial classes because he had a Mexican last name in a racially divided district (when challenged, his counciler said he “Thought he might want to be with his friends.”) was that not racism, or did that not come damn close to holding him back?
And as I mentioned, that is not true. Levitt has never, to my knowledge, addressed the home-buying study I mentioned. And the idea that he “exposed” the name study as “flawed” is false, as both Monstro and I have pointed out. Are you a poor reader, or simply mendacious?
You say it, you say it, and you say it again, but you still have no evidence for your assertion.
You keep saying it, but you haven’t proven it yet . . . you’ve said it over and over: spurious accusations about racism are causing any number of problems. But you haven’t come up with any reason to believe it’s true.
And what are you talking about, anyway? Affirmative action has been slowly but steadily disappearing for decades. What “federal set-asides” do you mean? Which ones should have been abandoned but haven’t, and how can you prove they haven’t because legislators are worried about being called racist?
You’re just saying the same things over and over, only your argument has become steadily less comprehensible each time. Perhaps some federal subsidies specific towards ameliorating the divide between blacks and whites still exist because not everyone shares your dogma - and that’s what it is; it’s not something you have even come up with evidence to support - that racism is a non-issue. Perhaps they still exist because they benefit some powerful senator’s home district. Perhaps they still exist because they’re way down on the budget list and everyone falls asleep before they read that far.
Or perhaps these “federal set-asides” are imaginary - perhaps you didn’t have any particular program in mind when you said that, but just offered it up as a half-assed attempt at an “example” to prove what you’re saying.
The bottom line is that you have yet to come up with any evidence that these apparently absolutely constant false accusations of racism are causing any of the problems you claim. It doesn’t even make sense - if false accusations of racism are so prevalent, why would anyone be listening anymore? Even genuine evidence of that sort of thing tends to be ignored nowadays, because your viewpoint is so common.
But like I said, the fact that it’s common doesn’t mean you’ve proven it.
Um, what? You expect the Senate to meet and talk about what exactly?
“How public policy can affect race”? What does that even mean? Race is pretty much a given. How does public policy “affect” it?
Except you have no evidence that it has successfully trumped anything. In fact, your argument seems to be that it’s constant and wholly spurious - but if that’s true, then it’s certainly the case that no one would listen anymore. Just like no one listened to Cynthia McKinney’s ridiculous charges. Sure, she cried race - but she didn’t accomplish anything by doing so.
I don’t know how you can say what you’re saying with a straight face when it’s so patently absurd. You continue to endow the word “racist” with a magical power, as though as soon as it escapes the lips of a black person, they magically - well, you haven’t really said what happens, but apparently it’s an enormous public problem.
Look, you don’t like providing evidence for your assertions. Could you at least meet me halfway and start forming rationaly, meaningful arguments? Because trying to puzzle out what you could possibly be claiming is getting tiresome.
Whoa! Talk about an incoherent sentence. That should be more like, “The fact that this viewpoint is common doesn’t mean you’ve proven it’s correct.”
I call bullshit. My wife, a white woman with a very wealthy father, and all sorts of letters after her name (degrees, that is), happens to have a name that many people consider to be a “black name”. She sent out an insane number of resumes and got a single callback, which was for an interview, and that was with a black-owned business. When she used her middle name at my suggestion, which has no such associations, she had a ton of callbacks, and was even called with apologies in some instances where the employers had already hired someone.
When did Thomas Sowell become an expert on either white or black culture?
We actually had a thread on the Straightdope where a poster admitted that he would not only discriminate against “black” names, but would discriminate against black people in general. I’m too tired to dig it up that horrible thread, but I’m sure that Doper wasn’t an anamoly. He was just bold.
It seems to me that whenever a black person brings up an allegation of racial discrimination, a lot of white people break their backs trying to deny it, as if they are being accused. Essentially, black people are expected to put on blinders and give everyone the benefit of the doubt. If they don’t have evidence that’s 100% proof of racism, they are told to stop whining. This causes people to get angry and frustrated after a while. Hence, the “black anger” referenced to in the OP. I don’t see the anger being a part of the problem. I see it only as a reasonable response.
I have been fortunate. The times I think I have been discriminated against because of race have been minor (like the time the Home Depot guy looked me right in the eye when I asked for help and then turned to help a white customer who cut in front of me). But then I think of people like my mother, who has seen some bad things. She once told me about how, when my siblings were little, she called a daycare center she was interested in. On the phone, the people were enthusiatic and told her to come on down and get the kiddies enrolled. But when she walked in and the people saw her, suddenly all the slots were filled up. Even though she had just made the phone call.
I once had a college professor tell me how the same thing happened to her, except she had called about a house she was interested in. When she showed up to view it, the real estate agent told her the house suddenly was off the market.
These kinds of incidents demoralize someone, especially when they happen often. Denials and accusations of “whining” and playing the “race card” don’t help at all. Nor does telling someone to “act more white”. “White” isn’t a synonym for “right”.
I’m personally of the opinion that I’m going to have a happy life despite the shit I have to deal with, being in this ole body of mine. I cope by having a sense of humor and a laid back attitude. But I’m not stupid enough to doubt that many people in this society–whether they know it or not–have negative pre-conceptions about me and that I will be fighting them for the rest of my life. If I have a kid, I won’t raise them to be distrustful of white people, but I wouldn’t let them grow up thinking that the world is fair, color-blind, and that racist shit doesn’t go down on a regular basis either.
Of course individuals face racial discrimination. I’ve said that over and over. And of course that is horrible for that person. In general, however, racism does not hold people back. There is no evidence that black Americans are in the situation they are today because of racism.
Excalibre, as was pointed out by another poster, Levitt certainly did expose the “name” study as false. You may not want to believe it, but go back and read the book. As far as set-asides, of course they still exist. While you may not be familiar with federal procurement rules, I am. And they contain provisions to give minority-owned businesses and advantage over other businesses. Furthermore, while you are correct that affirmative action has been slowly dismantled over the past decade, this was mainly a product of the courts, not the political process.
And of course there is no smoking gun with a politician saying that “we can’t deal with racial issues in Congress because we’d be called racist.” It’s ridiculous to expect one. From having worked in politics and observing how Congress reacts to interest groups and its aversion to tackling any controvesial issue, it is my opinion that the fear of being called racist is the reason for this. Just as it is your opinion that there is a vast racist conspiracy holding every black person in America down. Obviously neither of us will agree with the other on this issue.
DMC, Thomas Sowell is perhaps the foremost expert on race and racism in the United States today, in my opinion. You may want to check out his books Race an Culture: A World View, Civil Rights: Rhetoric or Reality, and the Black Redneck book mentioned above if you would like to learn more.