Frankly I don’t believe in hiding anything from children. The world is a fuckin’ weird, harsh, contradictory, and shocking place. The more of it you hide from children, the more traumatic it will be when they finally discover it after having lived their childhood in a shielded, coddled manner where everything is fun and games and happiness and “you are special!” It’s all bullshit. Nobody is special. A child is just a regular person who hasn’t grown up. Sooner or later he will have to face some nasty shit.
I’m against the idea of a world for children and a world for adults, the one for children filled with kiddie games and friendly talking animals and cartoons and TV shows with no connection to the real world. There’s only one world, one reality. R. Crumb writes extensively on this concept, and I admit that a lot of my feelings on the topic are influenced by what he wrote. I strongly feel that the less you know about sex as a kid, the more fucked up about it you will be later. The more that is suppressed, the more there is to come bursting out later.
“Porn isn’t real sex,” you might say. Perhaps not. However, porn is PORN. It is a very real and influential concept, and it is not ever going away. It’s better that kids understand what it is.
Ah. It wasn’t clear to me that the group of which you were speaking was to be regarded simply as concerned parents seeking evidence one way or the other. Rather, I got the impression that it was a group of pediatric doctors looking to make a point (hence the “amiss” comment). Sorry about the misperception.
Since I am not, nor will I ever be, a parent, I cannot even contribute anecdotal experiences. However, I’m interested in anything that comes up, as I’ve considered the question in the abstract and concluded that it’s a humdinger of a decision. Mostly though, reflecting on my teenage years, I believe that there’s actually very little to worry about and that our culture is way too uptight.
This discussion has serious flaws. We can’t define pornography .We dont know if it has any impact. We dont know if it had good a good impact on some people .,bad on others.
There is no definition of normal sex. When we define it ,we label some who feel perfectly normal as deviates.
I’ve met women who say swinging is the only way to go. Met gays and straights who believe they are correct. There is no correct.
Then is it wrong to be a perv by normal standards. They usually find each other and keep to themselves. People with similar sexual interests find it easier to locate each other since the internet came along. Idont think it causes an individual to change if he sees it.
Well, I’d be more likely to say that it’s their hormones pushing them into promiscuity since teenage sex existed long before Britney Spears. IIRC, 50% or more of brides in the colonial days went to the altar pregnant.
Every generation thinks youth culture is more corrupting than in the past. Imagine yourself as a parent during the Roaring Twenties or the post Civil War period when fashions and sexual politics went through massive uphevals.
Well I’d disagree some here, as an aside. Some of our reactions are, IMHO, indeed what we are biological predisposed to find as deviant and as normal and are fairly consistent across the vast majority of cultures. But that is a different debate and immaterial to this discussion. Our environment is our society and we are adapted to be able to exist within it. So what if my “gut” is a product of my socialization? It does not make it any less valid and may make it more so, in a very practical sense. If it is all I have to go on, then it is still what I have. Your tendency to say “The way we try to hide sex from children is unnatural and a bit neurotic” is less your gut and more based more on some objective data base perhaps? If so then please share the data.
And yes, that was very likely the case for this particular child. This is a kid who wore latex gloves to school one day just to see how people would react.
Ah. But that is just as much your wanting to pass on your values as my trying to get across the message that sexuality that depends upon degradation is not healthy is. We just have slightly different values. I don’t want to impose my values on other adults. Why is it fine for you to be concerned about transmitting your values (that anything goes between consenting adults and normal is illusuary) but not okay for me to be concerned about transmitting mine?
Gonzo Let me refine the discussion then. I could define porn as sexually explicit material that the mainstream culture in which you live has judged to be “prurient” and "deviant"as that which the same mainstream culture has judged to be non-normative. But I will do better. How much should a parent be concerned about allowing a child access to material that (s)he finds extremely offensive? If a child was watching snuff video, is that okay? Reading diatribes by those advocating for genocide of all of particular ethnic groups, should be allowed to pass without comment? Watching videos of people being voluntarily tortured, cut, whatever (for enough money some desperate people will “consent” to most anything) is that okay? If not then why draw the line where you’ve drawn it? Define porn in a very personal and dynamic way “that which you personally find highly offensive and objectionable.” Someone else may not agree, but it is to you. Should you control your child’s access to it? To anything?
Personally, I’d give my children (when I have 'em) “the talk” about how porn isn’t realistic and all that, but I don’t see anything wrong with it, or with children being curious/horny. I’d be much more upset at them watching graphic violence than graphic sex.
I think we will know the answer to this soon enough. The latest generation has probably been the first to have absolutely limitless access to porn, looking at it often from as soon sexual interest develops at 10/11. There wasn’t more than maybe one kid in 20 in my high school who didn’t look at porn. In junior high it might only have been 10%. (But maybe i shouldn’t be dating myself). Doesn’t seem like there are any ill effects yet.
hahaha, nod. when i was 13 i did the same. Haven’t looked at the stuff since, though. if anything, i’ll bet it prevents adulthood pedophilia. kills the novelty and fascination. i like boobs
Ha, I can imagine modern folks going insane over that. “You mean people had sex in the same room as children and those kids didn’t turn into crazy mutants!!!” Umm… yeah.
Lastly, I’d like to comment on how porn has changed since the 70s. Firstly, I think having realistic colors and good image quality goes a huge way toward making it less bizarre and shocking. Secondly, I appreciate the recent emphasis on “amateur” porn rather than the weird nasty industry stuff (god do i hate porn stars). I hope the next step will be to make porn movies be of the same type and quality as regular movies, maybe even complete with romance and relationships. Not that movies are an accurate reflection of reality… but I just think it’ll be a good step forward, and resolve the last hangups that adults may have of how it may be damaging. And also if the “amateur” stuff stops being a girl and some pervert she’d just met, but rather actual couples who care for each other… that’ll be a good step too. There’d be a good market, since personally nothing turns me on more than seeing actual pleasure.
some other random comments:
well… so what? just tell em to use condoms and tell yourself to stop thinking it’s icky. Sex (as all other things) is most pleasurable in childhood. It’s a waste that kids spend those years jacking off.
iluvurmom and that ironically-named user’s comments on “online safety.” Oh, get over it. No one’s going to abduct your kids. If someone wanted to kidnap someone, they can just go outside. What you’re really worried about is that your kids will WANT to hook up with an adult. Well… online safety won’t help you there.
touche, touche, touche. yeah, i dunno, DSeid. teach your kids whatever you want. you have my blessing (not that it matters) because you are exceedingly rational about yourself and your opinions. you know know when your opinions are based on fact, and when they’re not, and you know when it matters (and you’re right that often it does not!). i love you. i’d go into a whole discussion about what effectively passing on values entails (and censorship, except in rare cases of exceeding subtlety or total control, is certainly a poor method), but i’m sure you understand it all anyway. Ultimately values do not matter, but it also doesn’t matter that they do not matter, and in the end values do matter because it is through them that we’ve built civilization. So down with snuff films and up with wholesome sex and sideways with teens, or something!
In response to the multiple comments re: “real life” and “normal” vs. porn:
When I say “not what most people do” I mean exactly that. For the vast majority of people, goats and feces are not a routine part of sex. I don’t think it wise for the 13 year old to expect his 12 year old girlfriend to invert herself in a bathtub and fountain feces for his viewing pleasure. I’d like to head that off if I can.
Now, as he gets older and possibly discovers he himself has a thing for feces and finds a willing gal to defecate for him? Mmmmm…ooookaaayyy…Not my thing, but be safe and have fun, son!
I’m not passing judgement on kinks and fetishes so much as trying to teach my son what the cultural norms are (and there *are *cultural norms - kinks and fetishes are (mostly) harmless deviations from those norms) and what he can expect as baseline beginners’ sex. Likewise, when I taught him to cook, we didn’t start out with souffle, we made mac and cheese from a box.
Not to veer too far off subject, but I haven’t been able to find any free porn on line anyway. How much can a kid actually get his or her hands on without a credit card?
Wha? If you’re not picky, it’s as simple as typing “porn” into a google images search with the filters turned off.
There might be junk to sift through, but as far as free online porn goes, it’s a heckuva lot easier than it was when I was a young lad.
Heh, I remember going to a buddy’s who had a modem (didn’t have one at home until the mid 90s), and copying onto disk some very mild softcore-type pictures onto 3.5"s to bring home.
I agree with that 100%. While people worry about porn corrupting the precious children (won’t someone think of them!?!?), mainstream culture and media sexualizes the pre- and early-teen experience more than exposure to porn ever has.
I don’t know why you would think that, unless you haven’t studied the practices of many cultures.
“Deviance” varies widely among cultures. The only thing that every single culture seems to have in common is an incest taboo, but the definition of “incest” is extremely flexible. Some culture have even allowed father-daughter sex, while others prohibit marriage between even distant cousins.
Some cultures have allowed sex with children while others find it abhorrent. Some encourage acrobatic positions while others insist on a single postition as being the only one that’s appropriate. Some cultures have actively encouraged homosexuality among males while others think it’s disgusting. Some cultures require mutilations of the body in order to be considered “clean” or attractive, while others think it’s bizarre to alter the body in any fashion. Some walk around nude, while cultures have held that they must cover their “shameful parts” even during coitus. You name the “perversion” and there’s likely been a culture in which is was considered perfectly normal sexual behavior.
There are very, very, very few behaviors which are biologically predisposed. The urge to have sex is one of them, as is the urge to flee from danger, but morality is purely a human invention, and varies according to the culture in which you were raised.
No, I think it is pertinent. You’re asking if pornography is innately harmful and our socialization plays a big role in what is deemed harmful and what is not.
Realize that the same excuse has been used to justify all sorts of prejudices and bigotry. You are a product of your socialization, but you are certainly not a prisoner of it. You can be as open-minded as you want.
Cite: human history. For additonal reading on the subject, any sociology text should do.
Ah, social probing experiments. You may have a budding sociologist on your hands.
Values are one thing, personal preferences are another. It’s laudable to teach a child not to harm others and how to behave in order to get along in society, but telling a child that a sexual practice between consenting adults is “wrong” is like telling them that it’s “wrong” to prefer chocolate over vanilla ice cream.
Without looking up the Nixon study I’d have to say that 1970 porn and 2006 porn are as different as night and day. I don’t want to throw up a straw man but sexually explicit material in the 70’s reflected variations of Playboy-like venues. The predominant example would consist of naked women in various poses. Yes there was other material out there but the majority of it was in publication form. Enter the VCR and all that changed. The “porn industry” took off with the introduction of video. The amount and variation of pornography has grown rapidly because of this. The internet adds a level of accessibility (without cost) and it is not governed in any way by local ordinances.
If you accept that we are a product of our environment (at least to some degree) then everything we are exposed to adds to our personality in some small way. As adults, we self regulate what we expose ourselves to because we can rationalize what is appropriate behavior. Children have not developed the reasoning skills of adults and that is why we have a parent/child relationship.
Exposure to nudity, by itself, is different than exposure to sexual acts and that is what becomes a concern when talking about pornography. There is literally nothing that can be conceived of sexually that is not on the internet. Much of it is misogynistic in nature. Women become objects for any and all sexual gratification and there is nothing in any of it to suggest a loving relationship. A parent’s goal should always be to keep their child on a positive road to self-fulfillment. Pornography represents one of many pitfalls that need to be addressed in that role.
Example: Man holding women’s head while 2nd man has oral sex with her. Ends with 2nd man smacking her face with his penis. I could be more graphic but I won’t. If that is a free preview what would the site have on it? I’m guessing misogyny is prevalent on the net but I don’t have the time or stomach to quantify it. IMO, people who become sexual predators are introduced to this partly through ever-increasing displays of misogynistic behavior.
While I don’t think that misogynistic porn makes misogynists, I believe it emboldens them (I’m willing to entertain cites that state otherwise). The problem with much internet porn is that it sets the wrong expectations - and too few children’s parents have the courage to speak frankly about the subject and set reasonable expectations.
You probably wouldn’t but once a porn site is found there are usually links to other sites and everything is broken down by category. It is also a great way to pick up a virus designed to capture personal information. Don’t know what the current scams are but earlier viruses would turn off the speakers and then redial to a phone site that charges by the minute. I think that was more prevalent with dial-up but could still work today for DSL. Not sure if it would work on cable. Haven’t kept up on my geek reading so I don’t know what the cutting edge scams are. I did have a parent tell me their kid “borrowed” one their credit cards. Didn’t ask what the damage was.
Oh boy. Dig, you want to take this one? Honestly I don’t have the time today to go through a Blank Slate debate, and will just leave this as something that we have come to different conclusion on. Lissa you may be interested in reading The Blank Slate by Stephen Pinker for an overview of some data on the subject, however, before you decide, and before you dismiss an alternative POV as only possible as the result of someone not having “studied the practices of many cultures.”.
I’ll focus instead on some inconsistencies in your position. If you believe that very few behaviors other than the deisre for sex and the desire to flee are biologically predisposed and that “morality is purely a human invention”, that our minds are Blank Slates which society imposes morality upon, then you are stating that moral values are the products of our socialization. Therefore it is imperative that we parents control that which these malleable minds are exposed to in order to teach them what we consider to be proper values.
Oh but proper values are what you think they should be, not what I or anyone else thinks they should be. Anything other than what you think is akin to bigotry. But that conclusion is not reflective of your socialization or your “gut reaction”. It’s based on “all of human history.”
I beg to differ. My review of the data is that much is predisposed and much of our values are learned. Mostly my household and society at large will teach those values and I doubt that a little basic porn is enough to offset that. Indeed, I think allowing some exposure to that which I object is an important part of learning values, by having them tested and challenged every so often. But there are places where I draw the line. And some of that misogynistic degrading stuff is well beyond it.
I have read it. I’ve read many books on the subject, and I don’t base my views off any one particular work.
I’ll say it again: values are one thing, opinions are another. You’re talking about your tastes, meaning that you find a practice distasteful and will pass that along to your children as guidance for their lives.
Actually, no. I told you, I’m a moral relativist, which means I don’t sit in judgement on other peoples’ practices. However, I do believe in calling things by their proper names.
I never said that. I said that the same excuse has been used to justify bigotry. There’s a big difference.
If you had lived in ancient Greece, do you believe that your “innate morality” would have precluded you from having sex with young boys? If you were a Spartan, would that “gut feeling” have kept you from having a male lover as your battle partner? Do you believe that in the days of slavery, when everything you had ever been taught supported it, that you would have somehow “known” that it was wrong?
I like to think that if I had lived in Germany in the 1930s and '40s, I would have been hiding Jews in my attic. I like to believe that I wouldn’t have cheered at bear-baiting in the Middle Ages. I like to think if I had lived in Roman times that I wouldn’t have beat my slaves. I like to think if I’d owned a factory in Victorian England that I wouldn’t have exploited child labor.
Where is the innate moral sense which should keep some cultures from such practices as the African tribe which believes a man does not produce his own sperm, so young boys must fellate their elders in order to get a supply? Why didn’t some “gut feeling” arise in the ancient Egyptian kings which would have turned them off to the idea of marrying their sisters? Why didn’t that same inborn moral sense keep the Pompeiians from decorating the walls with phalli and other various forms of pronography (such as the painted pictoral “menus” on the walls of brothels where innocent children might walk by and see-- if they weren’t already working there, that is?)
Again, you’re talking about matters of taste and preference. Your judgement is arbitrary, and may be completely different than that of another person. What you are saying is that your judgement is better than another person’s, that you know where to draw the line because of your “gut feeling.” All I’m doing is pointing out that there are no absolutes.
Sure. If anyone is interested, DSeid is referring to a thread started by Left Hand of Dorkness about Steven Pinker’s The Blank Slate. While the thread kinda got sidetracked into a discussion of the (possibly) computational nature of mind, the second post (by me) that initiated the sidetrack also dealt with the nature vs. nurture debate. Skip to post 12-16 for more, then to 25-28.
As I said in response of DSeid, I completely agree that there is no rational basis for why some sexual behavior should be wrong. I completely agree with moral relativism, in more respects than many would themselves concede.
However, it is also inescapable that there isn’t really a rational basis for why that matters.
There is nothing wrong with establishing a culture where everyone has sex the same way. In fact, there are many big-picture reasons for why this may be preferable. At the least, evolution has seen it fit to devote a great deal of instincts whereby cultures become distinct from one another. If we don’t stick to pointless mores, we’ll end up with cultural mush. Whether or not cultural mush is a bad thing is a GIGANTIC discussion in its own right, and inappropriate for here. However, I have big reasons to believe it is.
What is important is that we do not go too far in enforcing mores, same as we mustn’t go too far in enforcing any law whatsoever. We just have to seek the level of encouragement which is appropriate, and we have to understand that any drive toward cohesiveness will be accompanied by at least some cost. Yet I believe there are benefits also.
But, I mean, sexual preferences may or may not be something a culture standardizes on. But as a general philosophical principle, I believe we shouldn’t throw out cohesion of preference.
