Musiccat, $10,000? Boy you want a car that costs less to own and run that also costs a fraction as much to buy? Plugging in at night and filling up a tank once a blue moon or on a cross country trip too much trouble for you? Yeah, stay asleep.
The realistic goal is to have a car that costs no more than an ICE for total cost of lifetime ownership for a similar lifetime or better. That total cost must include the difference in fuel cost and upkeep (EVs are much less to maintain). You decide if you want to price in the carbon cost too.
Tuckerfan, I am not even close to being as knowledgable when it comes to things automotive, but I don’t see any massive hurdles here. Just problems that require a little bit of will from the govt and some forethought.
That is probably the case, but ALL technologies weren’t economic when they first came about - if we are not at the very least continuing testing, experimentation and investment, then we will never get there.
Yep - so the govt needs to set the agenda with building codes now. ALso my aircon runs off 13 amp power when the rest of my house runs on 11. (nto sure if this is a similiar issue) If the infrastructure is set up incrementally as people upgrade their houses and build it will not cost them much. (one special $500 plug out of the cost of a new house won’t even be noticed) Maybe the govt could offer an incentive and help people to start “future proofing” the house / electric system? Maybe by paying half the cost or similiar scheme
Easily solved - with a lockable cover for the outlet - presumably to keep things “fair” the power used in recharging would need to go back to a specific person anyway? The complex doesn’t have individual accounts but rather a co-op power use system? Then install a smartcard reader at the outlet - users could “recharge” their card online, at the bank wherever and then pay for their recahrge by use of the smart card.
IME technological problems usually get solved faster than the government can develop the will.
Nobody said anything about quitting.
New construction is easy, its fitting it into the existing houses/apartment complexes that’ll be difficult. Then, you have to get everyone to agree on a standardized system, given that car makers can’t even agree on which side to put the fuel door, I’m not optimistic that this will be easily solved.
Problem with the lockable covers is that people will lose or break the keys, creating a headache for apartment complex owners (not to mention this will probably inspire the punks to carry bolt cutters and rubber gloves), and they’ll be at risk of freezing up in the winter. As for the smartcard readers, doable, but you’ll have a significant number of people who’ll refuse to have anything to do with them because they’re concerned about identity theft issues (yes, I know the actual amount of risk will be minimal).
The only difference between this and those same thugs slashing tires on current cars is that slashing tires doesn’t carry with it a significant risk of electrocution.
Slashing tires can make a lot noise, cutting cables probably won’t, and the risk of electrocution will be a lot lower than you think. One of the reasons why electric cars require specialized charging stations, rather than an ordinary 220V outlet is to reduce the chance of electrocution if something goes wrong. But I bet you won’t see the lockable covers used a lot because of people not wanting to deal with hassle of getting their keys out, unfreezing the locks, etc.
Not right; for example, the electric batteries I use on my model planes take exactly one hour to fully charge. It can be done in half an hour or less, but a 1 Coulomb charge rate is best to increase the battery life.
This are lithium polymer batteries, they can be scaled up for automotive use but there’s a safety risk inherent in any high density electricity storage device, short circuits.
If a Li-Po battery gets punctured it’ll short and all the energy accumulated in it will be released FAST, fast enough to overheat it and ignite the battery. And since the by products of a Li-Po aflame include pure oxygen it is a fierce fire indeed.
Of course a gas car can go up in flames, but a ruptured fuel tank may, or may not light up. A torn battery will most probably ignite.
Other energy storage technologies may not have the self oxidizing problems, but they probably will have the same catastrophic self discharge if shorted.
It’s not just a matter of finding a very high energy density battery, it also has to be safe (or at least as safe as using gas).
The public isn’t interested in incremental improvement. If you market a car that has little or no advantage over existing transportation – worse yet, poorer than existing transportation as it is now – and you charge a premium price or even the same price for it, it will have very few customers. Basically, all you will get is the ultra-conservationists who will pay more for something that appears to be good for the environment, or the rich who can afford to tinker with stuff that is unique and appeals to their ideals. You won’t sell to the masses.
And this is the way existing electric or even hybrid cars are priced today. If there was a breakthru in price and/or features, so much that it could easily be shown to be a Good Financial Decision to buy one, the general public would flock to buy.
So I’m asking too much to want a $10,000 car? Consider what you can buy for a few dollars today in the computer field and compare that with the prices 5 years ago. That’s the kind of revolution needed in the transportation field.
Consider Henry Ford. Before him, cars were only for the rich. Thru smart manufacturing concepts, he was able to bring the price down for a modest model so that everyone could buy, and they did. We need another industrialist like good ol’ Hank to tackle the electric car.
Let us not forget that electric cars don’t actually solve any problems- the best they do is relocate the problem to your nearest power plant, which probably isn’t all that green. Emissions will be somewhat better, but it’s no environmental magic bullet.
Until we have cold fusion, there will never be an efficient way for 85% of the working population to move an average of 4,000 pounds of steel an average of 33 miles five times a week. This is a massive amount of moving stuff around. There is no way we are going to have the technology to make that not extremely wasteful any time in the future.
IMHO electric cars are a distraction invented by the oil companies to keep up the idea that one day technology will save us and we will be able to continue our current lifestyles forever. The true technology to solve these problems are in our hands- live near your work and travel together.
Tuckerfan first off EVs do not require specialized charging stations. Rapid recharge (like in 10 minutes) requires that. EVs (BEVs, PHEVs, and EREVs) are all primarily designed for a 110 outlet. Just because that’s what most people would have access to. The Chevy Volt recharges fully from its most depleted state in 6 to 6.5 hours. Some manufacturers are discussing having a 220 option which would halve the time. Long term though a smart charging infrastructure will be essential. A previous linkI providing on charging stations also discusses the standards emerging for ports.
One size won’t fit all but are you serious? You are worried that car owners who rent apartments can’t manage to not lose their keys?
All electric is a poor design choice. Hybrid electric is far more efficient and cost effective, and will be for a long time.
80% of a car’s lifespan is spent on trips of less than 20 miles. Why in the world would you want to carry around a charged battery good for 200 miles? Batteries are heavy, and they eventually discharge. They’re also expensive, and take up valuable space. Lugging around 1000 pounds of dead weight on 80% of your trips is not a very good way to go. Charging a battery for a 200 mile range and routinely driving 20 means you’ll lose energy. You’ll need more electricity to haul the weight around.
A hybrid makes perfet sense. Size the heavy expensive piece for the 80% case, and carry a small cheap generator for the rest. This gives you a lighter, more manoeverable car that uses less overall energy and yet has greater range and better acceleration.
We can tolerate hybrid cars indefinitely. If the car gets 50 mpg when running on gas, but only spends 20% of its time running on gas, it will have the equivalent of 250 mpg over its lifespan. At that kind of consumption rate, we can fuel cars with just about anything - gas, biodiesal, corn ethanol, whatever. We can make it completely green. If if the cost of ethanol doubles, the car would still have an operating cost much lower than a car today. And that’s sustainable.
We’re on the verge of a revolution in autos. I don’t think the typical car 10 years from now is going to look at lot like the typical cars today. Plug-in hybrids are poised to make big gains in the marketplace if they can be brought in for a reasonable cost.
A plug-in also only takes 3 hours to charge with a 220V plugin, or 12 hours to charge off of 120. So you can charge at home overnight and have a full charge in the morning.
PHEVs don’t have the battery size that something like a Tesla does. If you’re going to recharge something like that in a short period of time, you will have to use 220V. And while I’m sure there’s talk of standardization, it won’t be nearly as easy as you think, because everyone will be claiming that their bit of technology will be better than everyone else’s.
I’m not worried about apartment owners losing their keys (though I’m sure it will happen), if you notice, I listed several other problems. No doubt one of the ways to fix the key loss issue will be to match the locks on the charging station (assuming they have locks) with that of the apartment door.
Also from your cite:
(bolding mine)
Setting standards is a notoriously onerous process in any field.
They claim that their batteries charge quicker, hold more power and are safer than the competition. They’ve already setup battery banks to load level for power stations, so it seems that they work. However, I rarely see them referenced in any main stream media, so I wonder if something is fishy with the company
Build green powerplants - the technology is there already (most notably nuclear)
Build smaller cars - in reality, how many of us NEED anything more than a Nano car for our daily commute? Granted they’re not gonna work so well for a coast to coast trip, but for running to work it would be ideal.
Not jsut for cars, but in general we also have to start adjusting our expectations of what we need, more to what will do the job. Try spending some time living in Asia, and seeing how some people get around for transport - this tends to change your perspective a little of what you need in a car (or what will do the job in a pinch) as compared to what you want.
Lib, the figure oft quoted is that 80% of America’s daily individual travel needs are 40 miles or less, which comes to 20 each way or less. Which is why the Volt has been design to have that 40 miles as its daily range. Sam’s argument is why PHEV and EREV will likely be an easier fit for the typical American consumer until battery costs drop significantly. OTOH adding in the ICE and the fuel tank adds both weight and maintenance costs as well that pure BEV does not have. So someone who is confident that their travel needs won’t exceed the range of a 100 miles a day may be happy with 120 mile range pure BEV even without a Project Better Place style infrastructure in place. Still most Americans won’t be happy not having the option to spontaneously drive farther even if they never actually do.
Tucker, oh yes, you are also concerned about vandalism (because it is so much more difficult for a miscreant to vandalize a car that is not plugged in) and opening a lock in cold weather. Really? Those are major concerns?
I agree that the Tesla battery approach is a poor one. They went for off the shelf batteries and built around them. They also went for fast acceleration in a high end sports car. Other BEVs in progress aimed at individual use don’t have batteries that size or design either. Not “hopefully they won’t”; they haven’t.
Standardization of fuel intake ports is so hard? Gosh, I guess that’s why every car model’s gas tank has a different size nozzle receptacle. Anyway right now all the EVs aimed at individual consumers are designed for 110 plugs - pretty dang standard.
High power, the part you quoted, is for rapid recharge, and is mainly under consideration for the battery behemoths. That’s a lot of electricity moving in a short time. Those stations are not expected to blanket like gas stations but may be bought by fleet users and located in a few centralized points (so a taxi for example, could travel an 8 hour shift on one charge and be charged up again during a 10 minute break).
DancinPete, AltairNano (ALTI) had some problems with their first delivery which resulted in them replacing a bunch of them under warranty and slowing down their auto side’s progress. Their batteries are large and expensive. While they are still building their auto side, including smaller/cheaper batteries for hybrid uses, they’ve put most of their focus on larger batteries for other uses: grid stabilization;back-up power for Navy ships; and others. They see those markets as a faster route to profitability and have little competition in them.
I thought it went without saying that there are many different types of vehicles, and many different usage scenarios.
The future auto industry isn’t going to be monolithic. It’s not going to be all-electric, all-hybrid, or all-something else. There will be all-electric city runabouts, and cars with traditional gas engines for use by people who spend all day on the highway. My best guess right now is that hybrid electrics will be the mainstream vehicle, but there will be lots of room for variety.
What kind of load do recharging cars have? Code compliant house wiring is rated for 600 volts It’d just be a matter of upping the voltage to meet the load needs. What’s say 500 V * 10 amps? Would 5 kilowatts be enough?. Granted it’d it wouldn’t be code compliant prolly so you might have trouble with the AHJ.
Are you saying the connector it’s self would be expensive?
There is an inherent physical difficulty with getting an electric car recharged.
Let’s start with Sam Stone’s numbers. 3hrs charge time at 220V. Assume just over 11 amps of current, not pushing the circuits to their limits, and the recharge uses 11.3A x 220V x 3Hrs = 7,500 WattHours
If you take away all battery / capacitor limitations, you still have to deal with unloading 7,500 WattHours into the car, and doing it quickly.
If you would accept a 10 minute recharge time (still significantly longer than filling a gas tank) with a 220V service, you need to have a dedicated 200 Amp service just for charging the car. 205A x 220V x .166Hrs = 7,500 WattHours
You can reduce the amperage requirement, but that means jacking up the voltage to 440 volts, and you’d still need a 50 amp service.
Short recharge times require a seriously industrial equipment setup, with high voltages and high current draw, no amount of technology is going to make that go away.