As far as mammy is concerned, some people are just too easily offended. A figure like mammy is a part of our American culture. It is such a shame to loose that. The Beverly Hillbillies are still running on television you know. “Bubba” is the same type figure and people love it. Jeff Foxworthy and several other comedians have peddled that stereo type to the entire country and the people who love it the most are the “Bubba” types.
These types of figures, with all of their exgerated traits, are a reflection of real people who really exist. Got a problem with history ?
Not true. I’ve ever made any criticism of Bryant Gumbel, Tiger Woods or any number of black celebrities who don’t do the ghetto routine. Personally I wish we’d see a lot less of the ghetto thing from celebrities, in fact there are black people I don’t watch for just that reason Mo’Nique and D.L. Hughley come to mind. I just find Wayne Brady to be, well a caricature so to speak, he seems like a character out of a musical. Overall he comes off as phony and disingenuous in my opinion.
Remember one of Eddie Murphy’s early routine where he mentioned how modern brothers express disbelief that our ancestors didn’t rebel at slavery?* It went over big time, I have yet to meet someone who hasn’t laughed at that joke. It’s not the history, it’s the presentation. I’d like you to do the following thought experiment. Remember the worst day of your life; now imagine it was videotaped. Now imagine it being used to promote a ubiquitous product. If you need a ready example, have you ever failed to get it up? Now imagine Viagra using that moment as a selling tool.
[sub]*Just in case you’ve never heard it, it goes "Modern brothers act like they never could have been slaves ‘man if it had been me and some cracker told me to pick up a bail of hay, I would have said f$$k you massa, suck my d@#K’ it’s not like they had a choice, I’m quite sure the first nigger that stepped off th boat said ‘kiss my ass’ then 10 motherf#$$ers with whips went “wooshpish” and the buys behind him said ‘we’ll bail the s@$t’ man just kick back with those whips. Paraphrased, I believe it was on the “Comedian” album. [/sub]
The KKK is part of our American culture too. Should we celebrate imagery of burning crosses and white-hooded men brandishing nooses? I mean, come on. Just because something is part of culture (whatever that means), does not mean that it is wrong to take offense at what certain images represent.
White people laughing at themselves is a bit different than white people lampooning a group of people it historically oppressed. Maybe this is a hard concept for some folks to grasp, but it really is not that difficult.
The Mammy figure was not a benign stereotype. If you look at most Mammy depictions, her African features are exaggerated and distorted to the point of ugliness. Big, pink lips. Round, tarry face. Big bloated eyes. Hair so nappy it had to be covered. There is nothing endearing about her, physically. The only “good” things about Mammy are her skills in the kitchen and her complete and utter devotion to white folks. Outside of them, she has no life, no needs, no ambitions. She is a servant. And unfortunately, this was the only image of black people that whites during that time were comfortable with. Anything else was a threat.
The minstrel show is part of American culture. In fact, you could say it is an important part. It is probably the only uniquely American form of stage entertainment, not in any way borrowed from other cultures, that we have ever invented. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show)
Try putting on a minstrel show and see what happens.
I am not saying it should be celebrated. Did I say that ? I don’t think it should be changed, watered down or forgotton. It is what it is. Mammy, as well as the KKK, are a part of our culture and history, like it or not. Are you suggesting that we should put a kinder, gentler face on the KKK just like they have done to Aunt Jemima ? We stand to learn from our history, you know. Knowing where we came from is an important part of knowing where we are going.
I don’t think a successful campaign that sold millions and millions of bottles of syrup could accurately be called a “lampoon”. The figure was associated by most people with good, old fashioned breakfast.
Your opinion of beauty or the lack tereof is yours. You get to keep it. Caricatures are always exaggerated, that is a characteristic of them, not Mammy. You are right about the characteristics of Mammy. Do you think it is a good idea to just do away with Mammy, lest she remind us of her contributions, skills, opression, and general place in our history ?
That is what I was trying to demonstrate with “Bubba”. Bubba represents all that is ignorant and unhygenic in white, American males. These people exist. Mammy exist. The reality of this is evident in the manifestation of Mammy and Bubba. Art imitates life, even when it isn’t always pleasing to everyone.
What you said was, “As far as mammy is concerned, some people are just too easily offended.”
Offended about what? The existence of mammy is a fact and is not offensive. What she represents is offensive because its a reminder of less than enlightened days. Mammy should be seen for what she is/was. Not as a sweet, wise mother figure coming to drown us in a river of syrupy love, but as a caricature of black femininity and a symbol of racism. That’s been my point all along.
Well, would you feel comfortable looking at a real, unadulterated Mammy on your bottle of syrup? Can’t you see why a lot of people wouldn’t?
Aunt Jemima is not the first thing that comes to mind when I think of “Mammy” anyway. She doesn’t look like a caricature. She looks like an average black woman. Her lips aren’t stretched out of proportion, her skin is not made comically black, and her eyes are not bulging from her head. I think her current presentation is a good thing. I gotta wonder why someone would NOT think it’s a good thing, actually.
Uh huh. Your point?
If “Do away with” means scrub from the history books and museums, of course not. Does that mean we should put her face on syrup bottles, restuarant signs, and kitchen utensils to conjure up warm, fuzzy nostalgia? No. Some people may want to do that, but me personally? No thanks.
Were I suddenly thrust into slavery the man would be my role model. (See Cecil’s column on passive aggression.) Fetchit walked the fine line between being useless enough to not have to do any work and being so annoying that not even Shirley Temple would be pissed if you killed him. “But Big Daddy, he was so NICE! And look at all that money you threw away.” “Nobody would’ve bought him, Honey Child.”
Bryant Gumbel’s Black? (comparing forearms with Gumbel, his being more muscular but not significantly darker) Yeeesh, he’s Negroid like I’m Irish–a significant fraction but not enough to want to drink green beer on St Pat’s. Is there a cutoff, like Louisiana’s old one-sixteenth? Should there be a cutoff or is that rascist? Is there a chance that it will stop mattering? I know that most people, white or black, in my generation have seen changes in themselves over the past forty or fifty years they would not have expected but most still notice a person’s race, even if they try to not let that “color” their opinions. Is it true that younger people who haven’t been through such enormous changes notice it less? Looking at all of the mixed couples at my kids’ high school I see a light at the end of the tunnel. Ah, sex! The great homogenizer!
A phony and disingenuous show biz person? That’s unusual!
You are offended by a reminder of “less than enlightened” days ? So you don’t want to be reminded of our history ? Where we came from ? You are actually offended by it ? I asked this before and it is an honest question. Do you have a problem with history ? Let me say again that our past is an important reminder that halps guide our future.
Well, would you feel comfortable looking at a real, unadulterated Mammy on your bottle of syrup? Can’t you see why a lot of people wouldn’t?
You realize that “black” Americans are not so “black” anymore ? There is good atricle here. http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/ArticleView.asp?P_Article=12850 “Comically black” is an interesting choice of words. You ever met any African blacks ? Much darker than American blacks, “comically black” as you might say. There was a time in America when blacks were “commically” black.
Puppys and kittens conjure up thoughts of “warm” and “fuzzy” sometimes too. While they can be that they also are sometimes filthy, flee ridden and unattractive. We still like the warm, fuzzy depiction. When I said that some people are offended too easily, I was evidently speaking directly to you.
Seriously, are you being deliberately obtuse? In case you aren’t and are truly mystified why a racist symbol would be offensive, maybe I should ask what you do find offensive.
What does the swastika represent to you? Would you consider that which it represents offensive?
What does al Qaeda represent to you? Would you consider that which it represents offensive?
What does a bloody coat hanger represent to you? Would you consider that which it represents offensive?
All of these things represent something, either symbolically or literally, and all of these things are “reminders of our history” (whatever that means). Just because something is offensive does not mean it needs to be shunned or ignored; it just means that it represents something that many (if not most) people consider to be harmful or wrong.
For most people, a swastika reminds them of anti-semitism. They would not like to see billboards covered in gigantic swastikas, even in an innocuous advertisement for car insurance. Why? Because swastikas are offensive. For the same reason, I would not like to be in a kitchen with wall-to-wall Mammy memorabilia.
And this has what to do with the subject at hand? Very few black people–even Africans–are actually black. Most of us are brown, quite simply. That has been true for a long while, but even to this day we are called black. But what is your point?
Of course there are black folks so dark that they are actually black. That is besides the point. As you admitted earlier, Mammy is a caricature. Her appearance is an amplified and distorted synopsis of all the African features that white folks scorned. She has skin so dark it is blue. She has lips that are gigantic and pink. She is fat and shapeless, except for an ass out to Tuesday. And a shuck 'n jive grin that could kill Kool-Aid. She is made to be the antithesis of white femininity.
Your analogy is terrible, man. Puppies and kittens do not exist solely as symbols. They exists as animals on the planet, love them or leave them. Mammy, on the other hand, is not a real person. She is a figment of racist ideology. Like all symbols, she inherently represents something.
And as you can see, I’m really broken up about that. Can’t you see the tears in my eyes? :rolleyes:
I fail to see how Mammy will help guide our future.
I know you were asking you with the face, but I’ll answer your question.
There are many things in our history that evoke emotions. Mammy is one of them. When I see footage from Beaulah, a back-in-the-day sitcom featuring a Mammy caricature, I get shivers. I can’t read Gone With the Wind without getting angry. I can’t watch Imitation of Life without shaking my head at the black mother who is Mammy-like (and even makes pancakes, go figure). Even Gimme A Break (particularly the early seasons) harkens back to the Mammy stereotype (Why couldn’t the writers have given her a husband and children?! Why was she overweight when everyone else was “normal” sized? Why did she have no “outside” life?!) These images bother me because I know they’re born out of racism and misunderstanding. Is being “bothered” the same as being “offended”? And is this a bad thing?
You say:
Did Mammy really exist? Do real people look like this?
You seem to be confusing the myth from reality. Yes, mammies as people serving a role existed. I ain’t got no problem with the historical reality of mammies. I do have a problem with Mammy As a Stereotype in literature and the media. The stereotype is fleshed-out in my first post to this thread.
And I see no analogy between Mammy and Bubba. For one, no one ever pointed to Bubba as evidence for why white men are souless, childish beings who need to be enslaved for their own good. For another, the “Bubba” stereotype–if it exists–is self-imposed–imposed on whites by whites. Black people did not invent the Mammy stereotype. Whites did…back when they had black people by the short and curlies.
Bryant Gumbel is black because both of his parents are black. He’s black enough to be recognized as such from a distance (unlike, say, Julian Bond or Colin Powell). That’s more than enough for membership in the Negrohood in the good ole USA.
I don’t really object to the exaggeration of body parts in old caricatures of Black people.
I object to the fact that all the parts being exaggerated–except the nose!!
Blacks were once routinely drawn with small, black button, noses, as if they were big-lipped dogs!
Just about everyone else drawn to caricature have decently proportioned noses. But when it comes to drawing Black people–here’s comes either the wrongly teeny-weenie nose, the Goofy black button nose, or the pig’s permanently flared nose, making the caricature grotesque. Grrr.
Racist symbol ? Can you tell me what it is about mammy that is racist ? What about a black woman that can cook is racist ? What about a black woman that is depicted with a smile is racist ? What about Mammy says “people A are better than people B” ?
The swastika has been a symbol of good luck and prosperity for a thousand years, used by American Indians, Hindus, Buddhists, Vikings, Greeks, Romans, Celts, Anglo-Saxons, Mayans, Aztecs, Persians, Christians, and neolithic tribes. Does that mean anything to you ? Are you shallow enough to pen the holacost on a swastika ?
Al Qaeda represents a of group fundamental Islamist currently engaged in a religious campaign to influence world opinion and foreign policy towards the middle east. I am unaware of any caricature or symbol they might identify themselves with.
A bloody coat hanger represents a coat hanger which has by some means become contacted with blood. Could you give some more info on this one ? Is it human blood ? Was the coat hanger found at the scene of car accident ? I think maybe you presume too much about these things. This is a perfect example. Do you really expect me to draw some kind of rational conclusion just by seeing a bloody coat hanger ? Give me a break. Better yet, give yourself a break. You don’t have to try and read so much into things. More often than not, you will be wrong.
“Reminders of our history” These are things that remind us of our history. Things that make you think of the past. A ship in a bottle, for instance, may remind us how people used to travel and trade. I’m pretty sure english is your first language, are you being intentionally obtuse ? Mammy, or at least her parents or grandparents probably were delivered to the US on a ship like this. Do ships in a bottle offend you ?
Can you give a cite on what “most people” are reminded of by a swastika ? For a very long time it represented other things. Some still see it that way. Because you associate it with antisemitism should we all do the same ? Should someone who associates it with good luck and prosperity give up the symbol to accomodate you and your feelings ? Is it possible, just any slight possibilty, that you are offended too easily ? Could you possibly consider what others see in these symbols before you dismiss them as offensive in general ?
My point is that many of the black women, whom mammy was modeled after, looked like mammy. Look up Esther Rolle for heavens sake. She is not exaggerated beyond what anyone portryed in a caricature would be. You make refference to her being “comically” black. My point is, there was a time, mammys time, when blacks in America were darker than most are now. Like the melting pot that we are, people have melted together and many blacks in America today can claim more European genetic markers than African. Don’t get offended just because mammy was “comically” black. She couldn’t help it. She was probably born that way and thus illustrated that way. And what is your problem with a smile ? You take offense that mammy knew how to smile ? Are you for real ?
Here is the real problem. Mammy does exist. She was modeled after real people, just like your little “Pound Puppy” was modeled after real puppies. I personally know several “mammys” myself. Black, female housekeepers that cook, clean and do laundry. Next you’re gonna tell me that “Joe six pack”, “Bubba”, and “Soccer mom” aren’t real people either. They are. They exist. The caricatures of these people represent real people and real characteristics of individuals.
Did you encounter a recent-vintage “mammy” figure or did you just come across some artefact of a less enlightened era (not that we’ve made grat leaps and bounds, but we progress, we progress), and decided to get indignant (on someone else’s behalf)?
Great Og almighty, Do you people actually go out of your way to find things to be offended by?
I don’t wander into GD very often but I wanted to share this enlightenment.
Like the OP, I was under the (mis)understanding that “mammies” really did exist. I’m a 45 year old white woman who was born and raised in the midwest. My only point of reference was what I read, and that was the “Mammy” stereotype.
After reading the homepage (http://www.ferris.edu/news/jimcrow/mammies/homepage.htm) on the site you with the face previously linked to, I learned that what I understood to be a Mammy really never existed other than in the imagination of the white creators of it.
Fighting Ignorance Since 1973?
(No wonder it’s taking longer than we thought)
This will be the third time thislink will be provided. Look at it and tell me if this is a respectful depiction of another person.
It doesn’t matter what the swastika symbolized centuries ago by various peoples. My question was what does it represent to you. If the first idea that popped in your head when you read “swastika” was good luck, then no wonder you’re having such a understanding my perspective. You don’t understand a lot of things.
To most Americans, al Qaeda represents Bush’s favorite word: terrorism.
If you don’t get that the swastika is a symbol for anti-semitism, then I’m not surprised the symbol of the abortion movement escapes your awareness as well.
Oooh, you got me there. Your arguments bring me to my knees.
Some, maybe. If by “some” you mean “basically none”. We are talking about the year 2004, not some time long, long ago.
And you have to be really desperate to demand a cite to support the rather reasonable claim that the swastika represents anti-semitism to most people. A simple google search of the word “swastika anti-semitism” would tell you that.
Of course not. Just because you don’t (or claim that you don’t) should we all do the same? Of course not.
See how easy that is?
No, but they should be prepared to deal with people being offended. Demanding them to stop being offended because “look, it represents good luck and prosperity, see?” is futile. Not to mention, stupid.
I never said everyone should find Mammy offensive. I said some people may not find it so, but I do. And then I explained why. You, on the other hand, have implied that it is unreasonable to find Mammy offensive. And in a way that makes no sense.
And no, I’m not too easily offended. You’re too easily offended by other people getting offended, though.
Like caricatures? I seriously doubt that.
Cite for when I even talked about Esther Rolle, let alone called her “comically black”.
For cryin’ out loud, Mammy is not a real person. She couldn’t help it? Ha! The people who invented her certainly could. Black folks do not look like caricatures. They do not look like bug-eyed, fat-lipped, button-nosed (very true, ** capacitator**!) subhumans. I can’t even believe I’m having to explain this.
Are you for real?
Cite for this?
And they look like this , this, and this ? At any rate, please don’t call them Mammy to their face. They may sock you in the face for it and then sock you again when you tell them they are too easily offended.
