How often do they cast a boy as Toby in stage productions of Sweeney Todd?

Cafe Society
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I’m hoping we have some Sondheim geeks here, a not unreasonable expectation. :smiley:

After my daughter and I saw the Tim Burton version, I checked out the Lansbury/Hearn PBS performance from the library. And she was sitting here watching it, and she wanted to know, “What’s the deal with this weird-looking guy they’ve got playing Toby? It’s a man, not a boy.”

And I told her all about how there are child labor issues with working with children in show business (and she said, “What about Les Miz?” and I said, “They generally rotate teams of kids in and out as the run goes on”), and about how it’s a grueling part (on stage, at least, where you can’t rest in between takes), and about how it’s challenging music to sing in the first place, so maybe it’s hard to find a 12-year-old boy who’s capable of carrying the part.

And of course, that having a grown man who is a skillful actor can add depth to the part that having a blank-faced, inexperienced boy doesn’t (she had to admit that the gifted singer in Tim Burton’s version was rather wooden–“Yeah, his face was all, like, nothing…”)

So all in all, it’s obviously just easier to work with a vertically-challenged grownup tenor who has the professional experience to be able to handle the part of Toby.

So then I wondered if it was customary to do that for stage versions of Sweeney Todd, or what. It seems to me (although I haven’t sat down and studied the score) that Toby’s two big numbers are perhaps the most straight “melodic” of the work, tailored for the singing skills of a child, and with more note “cues” given by the orchestra (“here’s your starting note/sing along with this phrase”), so possibly Sondheim was anticipating that at some point, an actual kid would be called on to sing them?

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Not being a theatre geek my memories are limited, but I do not believe Toby has ever been portrayed by a child before in any major production.

In fact, I thought that was one of the biggest deviations from the stage production, in that Toby in the movie is much younger than the character was written.

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As far as I know, all major productions on stage have had Toby played by an adult male rather than a young boy. The film is the first time he has been played by an actor closer to the actual age of the character. The stage directions in the libretto describe him as “an adolescent” & “the boy.”

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I can see why Burton would put a young boy in the role, but I prefer the idea of Toby being a bit older. In all the stage productions I’ve seen or heard, including the original Broadway cast, the original touring company, the New York City Opera production, the (awesome) John Doyle revival in 2006, and the 2001 San Francisco Symphony concert version, Toby is portrayed as a ‘simple’ young man, probably ranging from 16 to 21 or so.

And I think this is intentional, not because of any child labor laws (I mean, hello: Annie!) or issues with difficulty in the music, but because Toby’s not supposed to be a literal child. Yes, Mrs. Lovett refers to him thusly (“what a sweet affectionate child it is!”), but that affectation is probably used because he’s slow-witted and naive.

Seems like having a boy in the role kinda lessens the impact of the double ententre joke during Pirelli’s Miracle Elixir:

TOBY: Gentlemen, you are about to see something wot rose from the dead!
(A woman gasps — he smiles and wiggles his finger no)
On the top of my head!

I don’t know if this lyric, or the woman’s reaction, is in the film – haven’t seen it yet – but I don’t think the implication of impotence works with a kid.

Further, in Toby’s Not While I’m Around, I’ve always heard the lyrics as a very real, dire warning to anyone who dares harm Mrs. Lovett; as gentle and innocent as Toby is, it’s a creepy moment. If he’s an actual young man with the mind of a child but the impulses of a man, his threat carries weight to it.

(Plus the fact that poor Toby has been treated as a worthless nonentity his entire life is even more pathetic if he’s a young adult, IMO.)

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:smack: In all the times I’ve heard that song I never got that. I just always thought the woman gasped because she was afraid of actually seeing something return from the dead. What you say makes more sense and certainly fits Sondheim’s style.

Toby’s lyric is in the film, but the woman’s reaction is not. Now that cut makes sense.

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Sweeney Todd is my favorite musical, though I have yet to see the movie.

I disagree with this assessment. Having seen the original Broadway production, I would say the scream is one of horror, not embarrassment. I think she expected to see a zombie, not a limp penis. Listen to the cast recording and you’ll see what I mean.

FWIW, I think the rest of your post is excellent, choie.

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FWIW, in various productions I’ve seen, a sexual innuendo was clearly implied by that line.

In any case, in other versions (the 1934 British version as well as the recent BBC with Ray Winstone), Toby was played by a child. While I agree that doing so on Broadway raises practical issues, it’s probably truer to Victorian history in:re apprentices than to have an adult in the role.

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This is one of my sister’s favorite lines in the show for some reason. She was quite disappointed that it was not in the film. Which is odd since it’s one one instance when he really is a child. . .

Another favorite cut line was Mrs. Lovett’s, “But what are we going to do about the Eye-talian?”

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Interesting replies, all. I hadn’t thought of the aspect of having an adult play Toby wherein it adds a subtext of developmentally disabled or otherwise “not quite as competent” adult to the drama, but it certainly does, and IMO it works. We saw the movie first, which is why our assumption was that the boy soprano was the default and the adult tenor was the directorial choice.

Also, casting the 35-year-old Ken Jennings as Toby gave me one really good chill:

After he’s killed Sweeney, and the cops come, and it’s basically all over, he’s the first one to face the audience out of character and begin the Reprise chorus epilogue. And there’s a split second when he first turns around–and his face has instantly transformed from the innocence of Toby to the hardened cynicism of a fully competent, knowing, adult. Now, that’s acting. And a teenager wouldn’t have been able to pull that off.

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I think Burton cast Toby so young to provide as disturbing an image as possible in the last act.

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Thanks, stuyguy! I do stick with the innuendo interpretation though. It was fairly common for such elixirs sold by ‘street mountebanks’ to be touted as being useful for sexual revivication (although of course they weren’t strictly labelled as such… probably just referred to ‘will restore lost male vigor’ or somesuch). This early in the song, the crowd doesn’t know exactly what Toby’s selling; he begins with a reference to hair falling out (and loss of attractiveness) but doesn’t specify that the elixir is for hair growth until after Toby addresses the gentlemen with the “something wot rose from the dead” line.

Plus, why would the woman really think a guy selling elixir is suddenly gonna produce a zombie? Not very good for sales, that! I don’t think Sondheim would have written even a single-line extra character as being so silly and absurd. Sondheim’s far more likely to go for a risqué joke than a zany one. Lord bless 'im!

And that’s way more analysis of the line than it probably ever warranted. Sorry. :slight_smile:

Duck Duck Goose, I agree, the difference in Jennings’s face as Toby and as the Chorus is striking. Of course the white hair helps!

It seems that casting Toby as a boy would have changed entirely the way Pirelli treats him as being an idiot. I guess because I’ve only seen the musical versions, rather than the original Bond play or the earlier versions of the legend, I have never thought of Toby as being an actual apprentice to Pirelli. He’d have treated an apprentice with far less contempt than he does Toby; in the musical, it’s always been implied – or maybe I just inferred – that Toby’s a mentally challenged young man whom Pirelli treats as a slave because Pirelli knows he can.

Ah! I just looked in the libretto. Toby’s referred to as “Pirelli’s adolescent, simple-minded assistant.” So that gives us a window of 13 - 18 or so.

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I misinterpreted the title and thought this was a question about male/female casting. :slight_smile:

I know of at least one production (not major) in which Toby was cross-cast. I think it’s a good option to have, since a small adult female could portray a handicapped child/youth and wouldn’t have trouble with the high tenor range. (It can be done falsetto, but I think it loses something if it does. I love the purity of the counter-tenor sound for Toby, so if a female covers the role, no belting allowed!

(The most recent Broadway revival cross-cast Donna Lynne Champlin as Pirelli. That particular decision may have been due to the combined demands of the production rather than just the vocal demands of the role.)

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Apparently Manoel Felciano was mid-thirties when he played Toby in the recent revival. Also, he’s 5’ 10" according to his imdb bio. I didn’t notice age or height at all during the show. His voice was amazing.