How Patriotic Are You? (Particularly Antipodean and Euro Dopers)

In My Humble Opinion
1

On these Boards and in the news and entertainment media, I see plenty of examples of American patriotism. In fact, to an outsider the ostensible and exuberant patriotism of many (not all) Americans is iconic: it’s practically axiomatic. (Incidentally, I find patriotism of (many) Americans to be somewhat heart-warming, not something to be sneered at.)

A couple of images today at The Australian triggered an undeniably visceral reaction in me, which in turn poses a question: just how patriotic are we in my home country? We don’t think of our own patriotism in the same way as we think of flag-waving, chanting, hand-on-your-hearts Americans, but scratching the surface I’m forced to ask, “aren’t we exactly the same?”

Oh, these are the images: one; and two.

They make my skin tingle.

On the other hand, I’ve heard many people from the UK dismiss out of hand the notion that they feel a strong form of patriotism to their motherland. Perhaps founded in a contempt for the monarchy, they quite readily disclaim any notion that they place great worth in their sense of “belonging” to their nation.

On the other other hand (“look ma, three hands!”), I hardly know a representative sample of people from the UK.

Here’s a take on my own sense of patriotism to Australia:

• I don’t show outward signs of patriotism, but I feel a deep and abiding sense of pride and respect for Australia. I’d never say it aloud, but I love this massive, friendly, diverse, flawed, tiny, beautiful, harsh country.

• I don’t wave the flag. I don’t salute the flag (or heaven forbid, lash it to my car aerial)–but I respect the institutions and traditions it represents. I don’t like the design of the flag, but seeing it flown secretly fills me with pride and a deep sense of satisfaction.

• I know the words to the National Anthem (even the second verse!), but unless it’s Australia Day (see below), Anzac Day – or I’m really pissed at an international sporting event – I don’t sing the song (I just mumble along with rest of the crowd). And I probably have my hand on my drink, rather than my heart.

• Until I was 20, I didn’t know the name of the first Prime Minister of Australia. Even now, I can name more former American Presidents or Kings and Queens of England than past Australian statesmen. I know more about the American Civil War than Federation. (Why don’t most Australians know much about our own history and development? I suspect this is because we were founded in peace and concord, a federation of states born out of cooperation and mutual goodwill, rather than war and division. We’re not tied to the past, obliged to recount a bitter and contested birth. Our history is bloodless and boring.)

• I’ve never said “God bless Australia”–or even heard someone utter those words, for that matter.

• I don’t loudly proclaim “this is the best country in the world!” (despite what I may secretly believe. ;))

But underneath it all – below the veneer of irreverence for our institutions; below the think layer of disdain for government and for our head of state; and below the disrespect for our formal trappings of nationhood – I still feel deeply patriotic. I feel profoundly attached to this nation, so much so that I can’t conceivably envisage not calling myself Australian.

I don’t think I’m entirely different from most Australias, in this regard.

Oh, and this poem can still make me sniffle, after all the years:

**“Core of my heart, my country!”, indeed.

So what’s the Dope? How do you feel about your country? Some people I know dismiss the idea of blind patriotism as particularly absurd: why feel a sense of attachment to a country just because you happen to have been born on a particular patch of dirt? Why feel pride in a nation’s accomplishments when you played no role in its achievements? Why love the place where you were born when there’s over 190 other countries where you could have landed?

I don’t know the answer to these questions, yet I cannot deny my passion for my homeland. It’s how I feel; it’s completey inseparable from my sense of self.

So how do you feel?

Jervoise

2

I just don’t care about much of anything, least of all national pride. I just wish I had some useful information so I could sell it to China.

3

In the UK I think its a generation thing.

The older generation were brought up to be proud of the “empire”.

Whilst the younger generations have been brought up to be ashamed of that part of our history.

Hopefully the next generation will get a more balanced view.

I personally don’t think its a monarchy issue. I tend to view the monarchy as our Disneyland (great for tourists, lots of dressing up and parades).

The Head of State thing gives no real power as the first time any King or Queen tried to wield any such power would be the last thing thaty did be they were removed. No point in changing the system unless you know what to replace it with thats much much better.

4

First of all, Thank You! for the above comment!

Me: Not Euro, but if you’re in Australia then that makes ME antipodean (antipodean to YOU, anyway).

Now, I myself have never felt particularly patriotic. Perhaps because I have always been so disappointed with my federal government (even the more “liberal” ones- I really don’t think I’ve seen a liberal administration in my lifetime).

But I think my lack of patriotism has more to do with the fact that flag waving, the flag itself, the national anthem, the pledge of allegiance, have always been, to me, symbols of xenophobia, jingoism, chauvinism, and arrogance.

(However, much as I have always associated American patriotism with xenophobia, jingoism, chauvinism, and arrogance, I ALWAYS get very offended when non-Americans associate American patriotism with xenophobia, jingoism, chauvinism, and arrogance. Maybe a little hypocritical, I know, I just feel it’s constructive as internal criticism but antagonistic as outside criticism.)

My first real feelings of patriotism came the first time I drove, in a wide zig-zaggy line, from the Atlantic Ocean to the Pacific Ocean. With no thoughts of politics, I just looked around at the land, looked at the cities, listened to the music, talked with the people, and I thought to myself FUCK, THIS IS A GREAT COUNTRY!!!

I am happy to say that that feeling has stayed with me to this day. I recommend an extended roadtrip as therapy to any dismayed American.

But even with my newfound patriotism I still cringe at the traditional expressions of patriotism which I mentioned above. My patriotism is quiet and personal and the more boisterous expressions still represent to me all of the aforementioned x, j, c, a.
.

5

Jervoise, you sound like a lot of us Canucks, actually.

Not that our history is bloodless or boring. I didn’t think the history of Australia was, either. I was under the impression that your country started out as a penal colony. And that at least some of the British convicts who were sent there were guilty of such heinous crimes as, for example, stealing bread because they were hungry. I understood that because the British laws were so draconian, their prisons were over-flowing, and thence came the white man to the Land Down Under. (You’ll correct me if I’m wrong, probably)

I bet if we could hear some of the stories of the first convict settlers, we might find them quite bloody interesting. :smiley:

It seems to me that in generaly, Canucks are sort of on the same level as you have represented in your OP. We’re quietly patriotic like yourself, and do secretly believe that our country is the best place to live. Many Canadians also know way too much about American and British history as opposed to our own history (me included).

It seems that when the rest of the world notices us at all, we get lumped in with Americans and understandably so, we are very much alike on the surface, with much the same culture. Perhaps some Canucks will come along and argue that, but that’s not what this thread is about so I’ll leave that alone.

I was born in Scarborough, Ontario. This place is known for its work-a-day mentality, goofy humour, multi-culturalism and a bizarre mix of ugly industrial areas and leafy subdivisions…all of this is indelibly imprinted on my being and I am a product of it without question.

Like many other Torontonians, I’ve spent much of my holiday time “Up North”. Cottage country. In the bush.

The beauty of the bush country (and the bugs) in Northern Ontario, the encounters with bears and other wildlife, the lakes, the alcohol-soaked cottage culture, the long cold winters interspersed with brief, orgasmically beautiful summers and spectacular autumn…I am also a product of this and wouldn’t trade it for anything, ever. (Okay, less bugs would be good.)

Hockey, beer, snow, ice skating, lake-swimming, fishing, hunting, freezing, sweating, black-fly & mosquito swatting, barbequeing, politician skewering, eye-rolling, self-deprecating, hard-working, tax-paying, Crappy Tire-shopping pure Canuckian.

You’d never catch me saying it out loud, but, like the guy sez proudly in the Molson commercial, eh? “I AM CANADIAN”.

6

I wouldn’t wave an England Flag nor fly a Union Flag. I don’t sing my national anthem. I don’t support England at rugby.

Don’t get me wrong, I love the decent parts of my homeland - a sense of honesty and fair play, the wit, the erudition, the multicultural and (relative) lack of racism, the museums, the castles, the countryside, the city of Oxford, having a pint of ale in a sunny beer garden on a beechwood hillside while the local cricket side plays in the field below and a steam train chuffs past (I kid you not - this actually happened to me once). I get a lump in my throat when I hear Jerusalem and Elgar and Holst.

This does not mean that I overlook the huge swathes of my country that are not like this - petty, mean and dishonest, monarchist and class-ridden and ugly and brutal and violent and shitty. And it certainly doesn’t mean I think my country is better than anyone else’s.

Am I a patriot? Depends what you mean by patriotism, I suppose.

7

While I don’t exactly abide by the design of my country’s flag either – seeing it up there on the flagpole means, to me, that I’m home.

I do know about my country’s history. I revel in it.

I’m very proud to call myself a Kiwi, a New Zealander, a person born on a volcanic, earthquake-prone island with a huge depth of spiritual feeling and meaning.

As a member of my local Lions Club, I sing the national anthem of my land (the first, best known verse) once a month. I don’t sing it well, and it’s a bit of old Victorian stodge, but I feel proud that it’s my country’s anthem.

My country is not right in the policies as legislated down in Wellington all the time. But we can do some really good stuff out there in the world, and I’m proud of that. Some fine people are my fellow New Zealanders, past and present.

I feel the strongest tingling at Anzac Day memorials on April 25. To me, it’s not about our nation “coming of age” on the fields of distant wars. It’s about recognising that we are inheritors of a wonderful heritage, and keepers of stories from the past that it is our duty to pass on to the future.

Am I patriotic? Don’t know. But seeing my country’s flag means more to me that watching a bit of coloured cloth in the breeze.

8

Patriotism (and its big brother, nationalism) are an infantile disease. They are the measles of the world.

The fellow who said this was quite clever.

I’m Earthish cheers cobber.

9

I just see it as an accident of birth that I am English (actually, I was born in Scotland, but never mind). Britain has more good points than bad points, and of course I support the (England) football team etc., but mainly I’m just glad that I get to live in a prosperous, democratic country. France, USA, Australia or wherever would have done just as well.

I don’t think I’ve ever sung the national anthem, and while I think there’s something to be said for constitutional monarchy as a system of government, I don’t feel any personal loyalty to the monarch, in fact all the royal pomp and circumstance seems rather ridiculous.

10

I think it’s regional as much as generational. The experiences of Scots, Welsh and N.Irish are bound to be different - perhaps you should have said “in England”.

11

USA’er here, protesting against being included in the axiom of US patriotism. I’m not particularly patriotic and I think that any nation that would elect GW as President certainly can’t be all good although it might have a lot going for it otherwise.

I’m always suspicious of the super patriots at first. I tend to agree with writer Ambrose Bierce who wrote in The Devil’s Dictionary that patriotism isn’t the last resort of the scoundrel, it is the first. Not all super patriots turn out to be scoundrels, but that seems to me to be the safe starting assumption.

12

To me (European living the the U.S., married to U.S. citizen), the patriotism here always felt strange. On the one hand, I feel like shouting “Get Real!” when I see the display of flags, people crying when the anthem is played (mostly by folks who cannot remember the words), etc. On the other hand, I think that these displays of patriotism are OK, and I wish we had more of that at home, where people are basically embarassed about their heritage. But then I see the same folks drunk, flag waving, and beating the ^%!$ out of the other team’s supporters when the soccer team has won, so I guess it is all suppressed.

[/anger = on]

What makes me throw up is the fact that kids in yhe U.S. (maybe somewhere else as well) are indoctrinated with this at a very young age. Forget about the “in god” debate - why on earth do kids have to recite the pledge in school? Why is the national anthem sung at highschool games (not all but some)? This is brain-washing at its worst, taken out on those who can just do what teacher says.

Oh, and while I am at it, no matter what nation you are from, how can you be “proud to be an [insert nation here]”? What the F*** did you do to be from [insert nation here]? You can be proud of an achievement, but not something that was determined by the luck of the draw! E.g., you can be proud to have served your nation in the military, but to be proud of the constitution [the kangaroos, the soccer team, the military force, the fact that you are a democracy, your 2000 years of history, whatever it is your nation claims to be special at] is outright ridiculous.
So, you asked for it, there was my opinion
[/anger = off]
HAND

13

Just standing by the piers, watching one of those big ships being guided in…

Looking above at those Fighter Jets flying by…

Looking at families, with tears in their eyes as they see their loved one…

I’m very proud and my heart swells with pride…

Our country… Our Military…

14

I haven’t read the thread because I’m impatient this morning. (I’m having computer problems.) Anyway…

I’m very patriotic. I like the U.S. But I don’t show it outwardly. I don’t fly a flag. Coming from a military family (dad was a Naval officer), patriotism is deeply ingrained. But I am appalled by the behaviour of my government.

Yes, I think terrorism is a problem. Yes, I was outraged by the attack on September 11th. Yes, I’ve been called “unAmerican” because I disagree with what the Bush administration is doing, because I prefer Japanese motorcycles to Harleys, and because I like France.

But I think it is an American’s patriotic duty to question what our government does, rather than to blindly wave the flag and shout, “We’re number one!”

So even though my views conflict with what many people believe, I think that my holding of them demonstrates patriotism better than having a “my country, right or wrong” attitude.

15

I find myself in agreement with Triss. In fact, if you had substituted “Canadian” for “Australian” and so on in your OP, I think that you’d pretty much have nailed the way Canadians generally feel.

Well, except for the “bloodless and boring” part, of course. We’ve had a few dust-ups on our home turf in our history, but admittedly, nowhere near the amount or kind that other countries have had.

(And if I can ask–why was your post directed at only “Antipodean and Euro Dopers”? I’m rather curious.)

I’ve been fortunate enough to have crossed Canada from the Atlantic to the Pacific and back again, using a variety of means of transport–air, of course, but also by train and by car. I’ve also been up in the far North once or twice. Each time, I’ve been in awe of this land–the seacoasts, the cities, the mountains, the prairies, the Shield country of northern Ontario and the people who live and work in all these places–and it only furthers my feeling that this is my home and I’m grateful to be here.

A flag is a symbol, one that can change (as ours did in 1965), and whether I fly today’s design or yesterday’s or don’t fly a flag at all doesn’t mean much in the end. It’s nice to see the flag and the symbols, but I think there’s something deeper at work; something that goes beyond symbols (which, as I said, can change), politicians (who are necessarily transient), policies (which can change and go in and out of favour), and ideas (which will always flourish, but some will wither and die eventually).

Perhaps that’s how many of us see it–not as an overt display of flag waving, or placing one’s hand on one’s heart, or proclaiming one’s faith in the ideas written on a piece of paper; but a much quieter assurance and confidence and pride that being Canadian is a great thing to be, and Canada is a great place to come from. That’s what I feel anyway, and certainly, that’s what I’ve seen among most Canadians I’ve met in my travels.

C’mon, Triss, we don’t “secretly believe,” we “secretly know.” We just don’t tell anybody; that’s the famous quiet Canadian reserve the Americans are always remarking on. If they only knew! :wink:

Oops!

16

I think of myself as patriotic because I might not have been born in the US and I know what that would have meant. My parents went from India to England in the mid '70s (and left after a year and a half because the racism against Asians in those days was horrific) and came to the US. If they had stayed in India with my father’s family of farmers, I would either be working the fields or dead today (female infanticide is still a problem in rural areas.). Instead, I’m in the wealthiest country in the world at one of the best universities.

I’m not patriotic because I’m proud of where I was born. I’m patriotic because I’m thankful for what I have and who I am. I’m disappointed in the people who think of American patriots as all the in-your-face hicks when I think that most of them are people like me.

17

I find patriotism to be irrational.

Why be proud of something you had no part in creating?

18

I’d be considered as part of the “younger generation” and I am proud that Britain once had an Empire, I believe that Britain has done a lot of good in the past (and a lot of bad but that doesn’t make our achievements null and void).

I’m proud to be British and also proud to be Scottish (and still will be even after Holland cuff us at football on saturday :frowning: )
I’m even proud of my clan.

I can’t ever forsee a day when I’ll be a proud and patriotic European as I feel mainland Britain is very different from continental Europe.

I must say that I’m disappointed that we don’t have the same patriotic fervour that the Americans have, I was particularly impressed when I was over there how most shops would have the Stars and Stripes flying over it. I’d like to see more Union Flags flown in Britain.

19

Spoons! Shhh! Keep it down, eh? :slight_smile:
FWIW, I for one see more of the quiet type of patriotism from my American acquaintances than any of the in-your-face variety. True, the people whom I know in the states tend to be business people, educated, experienced folks with the social skills required to deal in the international industrial markets. I understand that this is hardly representative but I wouldn’t paint the entire country with the “rootin’ tootin’ hick” brush anyhow.

From these same acquaintances, I also see a lot of dismay, fear and bitterness at the current US administration. When they raise the subject, I gently commiserate with my American colleagues, having experienced my share of cringeworthy governments. Other than that I keep my mouth shut about it. Why rub salt in the wounds? There’s a vast gulf between government and the governed in the best of times. Furthermore I never hear anyone, from any country bragging about their government. Other place-specific things, yes. Their entrenched bureaucracy, not so much.

IMO, real patriotism has little or nothing to do with government and more to do with common goals, common experiences and even just simple creature sympathy among those who share a given chunk of the planet. Obviously those of us living now had no share in creating the ancient histories of our countries, but don’t we share a part in creating what our countries are on a daily basis and what they can become?

20

Not at all. I regard it as childhood conditioning.