How Popular Are Dogs... on a menu?

I don’t care about ivan’s daily post count. It’s only ten a day more than mine, and I’ve been here for nearly eight years.

The “attention-seeking” aspect, as I understand it, is displayed in this:
[ul][li]Start a thread will an ill-conceived or ill-expressed premise, even after previous threads started in the same way ended badly.[/li][li]Jump to ridiculous conclusion and/or respond with insults to anyone who questions said premise, and do so as rapidly as possible. Post #3 in this thread is a perfect example.[/li][li]Constantly ask “why?” in an effort to make people talk to you. Since people often try to to explain themselves (and re-explain themselves if the first explanation wasn’t clear), this offers near-infinite opportunity to get them to pay attention to you.[/li][li]As an arbitrary line, I suggest that when the original poster has contributed at least one-fourth of the posts in a thread and his total is at least four times that of any other poster, the thread is no longer about the premise - it’s about the original poster. Side discussions between other posters don’t arise in such threads, because every fourth post is by the OP seeking to draw the focus back to himself.[/ul][/li]
I’m not sure that I’ve ever actually called ivan a troll, though.

As an incidental note, when reading ivan’s link to the profile of Jason Fortuny, Internet Troll, I found myself actually saying “good” when Fortuny describes how he’d been molested as a child, because his adult behaviour is completely reprehensible.

Of course, Fortuny is a practiced liar, so his claim of molestation (indeed his claim of anything) is suspect at best.

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
I don’t care about ivan’s daily post count. It’s only ten a day more than mine, and I’ve been here for nearly eight years.

The “attention-seeking” aspect, as I understand it, is displayed in this:
[ul][li]Start a thread will an ill-conceived or ill-expressed premise, even after previous threads started in the same way ended badly.[/li][/QUOTE]

I’m still getting the hang of that preciseness needed for a good OP. Give me a bit more time. I don’t think there are many of my 27 threads that go like that though.

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]

[li]Jump to ridiculous conclusion and/or respond with insults to anyone who questions said premise, and do so as rapidly as possible. Post #3 in this thread is a perfect example.[/li][/QUOTE]

I’m gonna have to rein that in. I admit it’s a fault

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]

[li]Constantly ask “why?” in an effort to make people talk to you. Since people often try to to explain themselves (and re-explain themselves if the first explanation wasn’t clear), this offers near-infinite opportunity to get them to pay attention to you.[/li][li]As an arbitrary line, I suggest that when the original poster has contributed at least one-fourth of the posts in a thread and his total is at least four times that of any other poster, the thread is no longer about the premise - it’s about the original poster. Side discussions between other posters don’t arise in such threads, because every fourth post is by the OP seeking to draw the focus back to himself.[/ul][/li][/QUOTE]

Actually, I reply to the posters I feel interested by, or who might specifically have addressed a comment to me. If I’d replied to every post that has been made in one of my threads, I could possibly see your point.

Hmmmm… * gives Bryan his best squinting Clint Eastwood stare * “Do I see you laughing?”

eta… nasty typo

Ummmmm… no?

That’s okay then. It’s just that I noticed the uncertainty in your reply, “I’m not sure that I’ve ever actually called ivan a troll, though.”, and thought I detected a slight upward curl at the edge of your mouth. Seems I was wrong again. No harm done, I hope?

This is the kind of post that jars on me. If I was being repeatedly accused of trolling, I’d look at my posting style. It isn’t about caring what other people think of me as such, but more an acknowledgement that I might not be right about myself, and that other people might have a degree of validity to their concerns.

Just sitting there going “prove it” strikes me as a ridiculous attitude.

I’ve had a good look at my ''posting style", and I don’t think it reflects the accusations being made. You may beg to differ.

Do you think your posting style in this thread is any different from these two threads, which were closed because of your posting style?

It’s allowed in the pit, but it’s still a piss poor method of communicating.

None at all. The uncertainty stemmed from me having a lot of posts and as such it’s difficult to say with certainly that I never said something specific. On this board, a lot of people say “I never said that!” and get contradicted (sometimes on spurious grounds) by others dragging up older posts of the claimant.

Anyway, after I wrote the earlier statement, I searched my own posting history for “troll”. Of the 41 hits, maybe half were of me quoting someone else’s use of the word, and maybe a quarter were me leveling the accusation at posters such as VC03 and Valteron but not you.

Of course, if you consider an accusation of “attention-seeking” equivalent to one of trolling, then all bets are off.

When you are repeatedly told that your behavior is trollish and you repeatedly claim that you can see no proof of such it appears that there are only three classifications which you can place yourself:

  1. You know you are a troll and therefore will continue to use any means to maintain the “game”.

  2. You are too stupid to see that you are a acting trollish and continue to argue your case out of stupidity

  3. You are right! You are not a troll. Everyone else is wrong.

All we need to do now is get everyone else admit that they are wrong and you’ve got number three locked up.

Back to the subject at hand, **Ivan ** I’d be interested to know have you spent much time on farms with the standard edible animals. One can strike up a rapport with many different kinds of animal. It just so happens because of culture and practicality that for the most part we do so in our countries with cats and dogs but people bond with other animals. My cousin had a pet cow once called Stripe. Lambs are cute, everyone knows. However, that doesn’t stop us eating them.

I’ve been to a petting zoo! :slight_smile: But seriously, no, I haven’t. I was born and raised in the city, and have not spent a lot of time out of it, 'cept on the occasional holidays. I’ll admit I have had zero experience with the preparation of the food that has ended up on my plate. And, I have no inclination to get any blood on my hands, unless it is absolutely necessary. If that is a character defect, so be it.

It does my wife. Her rule is she won’t eat anything she thinks is cute, and lamb is one dish I must enjoy on my own. I say cute AND tasty is a winning combination.

Seeing that this thread has long ago derailed, I doubt anyone will notice or care about this, but just for the record:

Dogs have two characteristics that make them poor choices for food, one energetic and one ethical.

Firstly, dogs are, as noted above, carnivores. Although they can derive a significant proportion of their caloric needs from vegetable sources, in the absence of manufactured diets with processed vegetable protein and vitamin/mineral supplements they still require a significant amount of meat to maintain long-term health (I’m remembering about 20% of total caloric intake - I’ll try to look up some cites tomorrow), and unlike cattle/horses/sheep they can only eat and digest those vegetable foods that humans can also eat. [Pigs similarly can eat almost exclusively human-available foods, but they do well on a purely vegetarian diet and additionally can happily eat foods (such as acorns and dried cassava peels) that are nauseatingly unpalatable or even toxic for humans without extensive processing.] As such, it is energetically far more efficient to eat the meat that would be fed to the dog than to raise a dog for the purpose of eating it.

Secondly, although practically all domesticated animals down to and including chickens have been selected for easy socialization to humans, dogs have been selected to socialize to people more rapidly and with less encouragement than any other non-primate species studied to date. Dogs raised in laboratory conditions with minimal human contact will, when presented with a socialization opportunity, spend more time in the region of the experimenter, initiate contact more frequently, look at the experimenter’s face more often, and follow gaze cues and pointing more reliably, and will perform more difficult tasks to obtain socialization opportunities and show greater distress when the trial is ended, than any other non-primate species (domesticated or otherwise) raised in similar conditions. Dogs raised in near-isolation will, in fact, respond more strongly (on average) to an opportunity to socialize with a human than with another dog. Dogs are actually better at recognizing and interpreting human communicative gestures (such as pointing and gaze cues) than are other non-human primates (including chimpanzees) of a similar degree of socialization, in part because they (spontaneously) spend a greater proportion of the test time looking at and attending to the experimenters. Wolves display no such abilities, suggesting that these traits were introduced by artificial selection.

The practical upshot of this is that it is nigh-impossible to raise a bunch of dogs simply as livestock; anyone who has been to the even most foul of puppy mills knows how quickly dogs will respond to the most minimal human interaction. Pigs, horses, cows, etc. can become deeply attached to their human handlers, but for dogs it’s almost unavoidable. If you are raising a dog for food, or any other strictly utilitarian purpose, you may not love it but it almost certainly loves you. And this is a trait that we as a species have deliberately (if not necessarily consciously) introduced. It seems to me perverse, and even traitorous, to spend 10,000 years or so to create a species that is so deeply attached to us and then simply slaughter it and serve it for dinner.

Cats, meh; how do they taste with garlic sauce?

JRB

I somehow fail to see the ethical quandary in this. It’s not like we’re indebted to dogs or anything, and if we have some responsibility to care for the species we’ve nurtured and domesticated and such, dogs have as much right to not get eaten as, say, corn (mmmmmmm, corn-dogs…)
If anything, the socialization just makes dogs easier to catch come dinnertime. “Sit, Ubu, sit… Good dog!” [bam!]

That is messed up, yet hilarious.

As JR Brown said above, dogs as carnivores are not energy efficient to eat if you feed them on meat suitable for human consumption. However, dogs can eat rats, moles, lagomorphs, and other vermin while foraging on their own, as well as inedible entrails. Their killing and eating parasites can save grain crops destined for human consumption and prevent the spreading of disease.

As far as his moral objection, I got nothin’. I never really thought of it as an ethical question. I raised meat all my life practically, killed lambs, cows, and pigs that I had named and petted and was fond of, but given a choice between the family being hungry and them, it wasn’t something I considered. I would think less of someone who killed an animal, whether a dog, cat, deer, or pig for no reason, but for food purposes I have no problems. Maybe I’m wrong, and dogs and man share a relationship that is unique. I’ll have to think about it.

Humans can and do eat all of the vermin you mention. Whether finding and catching them is more energy-efficient than letting the dog do it and then eating the dog depends on circumstances. And there is basically no such thing as “inedible entrails”; if a dog can eat it so can you. Any culture that eats dog other than in times of starvation also uses every scrap of meat on a pig / cow / goat / whatever; the inner bits seem unappetizing to us Americans only because we have so much meat that we can afford to throw away the other stuff and are, therefore, not used to seeing them on the plate (me, I loves me some tripe… can’t stand liver, though).

And I’m a she, thank you very much. :smiley:

JRB

The point is not that we’ve “nurtured and domesticated” dogs; we’ve also nurtured and domesticated a whole bunch of other things, as you say. It’s that we’ve selected dogs specifically to love us and worship us and watch us constantly, quivering for the chance to respond to our every gesture (if you don’t believe this, go watch an upper-level herding dog trial). I’m pretty sure corn doesn’t give a damn about whether the farmer loves it; dogs do.

JRB

My step father was a sheep farmer. I’ve bottle fed the damn things and then poured mint sauce onto them later.