My observation in a nut shell is that people are capable of an almost unbelievable level of denial and self and other rationalizations. I have very often seen people who seem to consider themselves to be fine and decent people engage in acts and words that run the gamut from mostly harmless face saving to blatantly cruel and injurious and who appear to recieve a malicious glee. These acts and words can be directed to strangers, friends or close family members. When I witness these acts I have to wonder how aware are they that they are doing them. As some examples, I have witness a company whose mid and upper management would place staff and clients at risk while breaking state health codes because it was in there financial interest to do so. Upper management would become very angry when told of this and I was told “you have to dance the dance”. This was after being told that staff and clients were being exposed to a very contagious and life threatening infection. But why do they care? They are not the ones on site. What I find interesting is that this same person became very angry when I told him that I and other staff had previously sent a long list of concerns such as these some of which were violations of state health codes he said in essence, do you realize how busy we are. His decisions were placing peoples lives at risk but he was much more concerned with how busy he and others at his level were. I’m sure that he thinks of himself as a great guy as most people seem to. I have also witnessed people who treat others around them in a physically and/or emotionally abusive manner and think that others around them are lucky to have them. I have witnessed people who lie and manipulate on an almost continul basis to business associates, clerks, friends and family but think that they are a truly good person and the reason they lie to others is that other people nautually want to help them so lying to them helps them to achieve what they would want to do anyway. I have witnessed someone who said that their dying father was “copping an attitude” when he said that he was upset that his children weren’t coming to see him in his final months. This same person now has a girlfriend in the same town that his father lived in and goes to see her almost every weekend. This list can go on and on. What I wonder though is how self aware are these people. They all see themselves as good people but react quite negatively if these contraictions are even hinted at. They don’t want to talk about them and will use various means to avoid being confronted with them so in order to do this they must have some self awareness that comes to play on some level. I have also noticed that people will often defend others in a general sense when they feel threatened themselves on behaviors that they also perform in some manner. I have noticed that spouses are often kept together by shared lies, rationalizations and self delusions. In fact I think this is part of what attracts them to each other in the first place. What do others think about these matters.
I think you need to learn to use paragraph breaks.
Wow, a solid block of text.
Re-posted with paragraph breaks for readability. Or for reducing eyestrain, at any rate - I make no claims beyond that.
Thank you!
I think it’s a general human trait that people cast themselves in a good light and can justify their bad behavior. I think Dale Carnegie would have agreed with me. 
I figure I’m about as self-aware as I need to be. The alternative of being overly empathetic and aware risks a lot of time being wasted on fretting and regrets.
Agreed. For all that they may be ignorant about knowledge-basd matters, human brains are highly adapted to deal with social situations, and generally people do whatever gives them social rewards (at least a local maximum). In many cases “high self-awareness” leads to worse outcomes. I’m sure we all know cases in which a healthy egotism leads people to respect you more than a realistic self-assessment, and mild overconfidence brings higher social status with little penalty.
(OP) How do you manage to hold your breath for such a long time?
I consider myself extremely self-reflecting (not exactly the same as self-aware I guess) and often find myself reacting the same way you do, meaning I find others in general to be much less self-reflecting than I am.
Then I start thinking about whether, since it is so common for people to appear not to be self-reflecting to me, I myself am appearing the same to them. And whether that indicates that they are self-reflecting. But that is only a minor thought which I tend to dismiss on evidence. The problem is that I start thinking that maybe I am not self-reflective at all but just as non-reflective as everyone else and just rationalizing. Of course that immediately leads to the conclusion that I the very fact that I reflect on it proves that I am self-reflecting. Which it actually doesn’t, since that too could be a rationalization or wishful thinking, or an expression of paranoia. Which makes me a bit paranoid. Which at least shows that I am self reflecting. Except it doesn’t… Ad nauseum.
In the end I feel like a self-observing onion made of thin peels of mirrors, and then only drugs and alcohol will fix it. It’s probably a combination of ADD, Paranoia and an overdose of self-reflection.
I don’t think he was holding his breath. I breathe during commas and periodsand he definitely had periods.
I believe that I am close to the OP, in some ways. I have spent some time considering the same questions. Frankly, it’s fair to say that I’ve been traumatized by some of these issues, and I find it very difficult to articulate my concerns and to delineate exactly what the issues really are.
For me, the questions boil down to wondering just how it is that people can be so cruel and so callous to their fellow human beings. Or, to boil it down further, little more than a plaintive cry: why?
I don’t often think of these questions relating to how people treat one another in terms of self-awareness, however. One question which bothers me in particular is what is the explanation for the cruelty, the antipathy, when dealing with someone who is too knowledgeable and socially adept to safely label them with the usual explanations for such behavior (e.g., immaturity)?
Maybe it would be useful to consider the issues with the framing that the OP uses. Do people, even the cruelest, most callous, think of themselves as “good”? Do even the sadists and sociopaths amongst us write their personal narratives with themselves as the hero (or even the innocent victim)? If so, then how can one account for those behaviors described in the OP? How does one justify such behaviors to themselves, or otherwise mitigate the dissonance between their positive self-regard and their behavior?
I can understand the self-defense mechanisms that allow us to let only so much of the pain of the world in to deal with a one time.
But what in the world is it that allows me to buy yet another “play pretty” for my house when I know that that money could immunize so many children or provide food or medicine for a family? I don’t understand myself!
And why the deliberate coldness or put-downs to those who do dare to question our priorities and defenses?
Any one of us, myself included, who lets someone literally starve while we spend the money for a ticket to a sporting event is a whole lot screwed up. What within us allows us to do that?
As some have pointed out in their responses, there is a tendency in people to not self reflect because it can lead to undesirable outcomes. I agree that most people choose this path because it is far easier to do so. I would make the argument that this is voluntary and not determined, becoming increasingly prevalent and on wider and longer scales extremely self destructive as well as being destructive to others.
The rewards for being unself aware are numerous. People treat others who appear to be self confident better than thoses who appear to have low self confidence. The high self confident people are more likely to get a better job, get promotions, get successful mates, be accepted by others in everyday social situations etc.
They are also able to avoid many of the punishments exacted on those with low self esteem which includes social ostracism, being labeled as being ‘negative’, not recieving as much wealth and status, etc.
To engage in behaviors that are narrowly advantageous to oneself and harmful to others does indeed have many benefits especially in an American society where it is thought that one should maintain a positive and optimistic attitude. Where actions and not thoughts are productive. So thinking about things is an unnecessary distraction from getting what you want insofar as it does not lead directly, such as in planning the necessary steps. Thoughts that may lead to a hindrance of action such as self examination, remorse, regret, thinking of the possible harmful effects to others etc. are considered to be a waste of time.
These ‘negative’ kinds of thoughts may also lead to negative feelings which people also do not want. The emphasis that Americans put on being positve and happy has led to ever increasing attempts at denial. Companies are putting more and more pressure on people to be positive (see Barbara Ehrenreichs book Bright Sided). As people become more ‘positive’ to survive in their careers they place more pressure on each other to be positive and not negative. Since people can fairly easily pick up on some level on the negative feelings of others it becomes adaptive to shift oneself from an equilibrium of a wide range of emotions to experiencing a narrower range.
To do this, Americans are using various methods, such as conscious and unconsious self delusion, prescription drugs such as pain killers, anti depressants, alchohol, illicit drugs etc. The goal is to maximize reward and minimize pain. There is a degree of involuntary self preservation involved but I think for the most part that these are conscious decisons that are being made. People are not determined, they do make choices and often those choices are narrow and self defeating.
American society is taking choices and inclinations that have been around for a very long time and present in all people and cultures and pushing them to extremes. If one uses the analogy of alcohol use in the attempt to avoid pain, one can say that many use it on an occasional basis to escape with friends from a bad day at work. The problems start to come when it is used frequently and leads to physical problems such as detox, cirrhosis of the liver, not eating enough to maintain basic health etc. Social problems such as job loss, the loss of family, violent behavior etc. And self realization problems such as denying that one is an alcoholic despite these problems being present. As the problems become more severe, the corresponding level of denial must also become more extreme in order to maintain the behaviors. Cracks may appear at times in ones ego defenses but these can be ignored or glossed over by increasing the level of ones addiction and increasing the level of denial. If the person does reach a point at which these are honestly percieved as problems and not just mouthing the words it is usually only after many falls. Some never reach this point. And it is often done with merely replacing the addictions with other addictions.
I think there are many similarities in the way American society works. We want to experience pleasure, fun, happiness etc and are greatly pressured to do so by society. We want to avoid pain, boredom, sadness etc and are greatly pressured to do so by society. So we fill our lives with work, fun, chemicals (both legal and illegal) in an attempt to fit in and not be haunted by demons that for most can only be submerged so far. As the pressure from the workplace, social groups, friends, family etc increases to be positive, happy etc so too does the degree to which we rationalize and deny.
The use of presciption drugs has skyrocketed, with lots of favorable legislation, advertising and a populace that is hungry for something to ‘fix’ them while further engaging in addictions. The extreme use of the internet is another safe haven for people attempting to avoid pain.
There is however, a semi consious realization and almost delight in this among many. There is a sadistic glee in knowing on some level that if oneself is going down the tubes then at least others are suffering as well and praise the lord there are even people worse off than I am. I think this sadism is becoming increasingly conscious and it is to the poinit that if one does not participate in it then one is naive, stupid etc. Many modern televison shows seem to show this as sit coms are increasingly built around who can rip and slash others with the sharpest rapier. There is enough sugar put in the show to make people more comfortable with the messages and to maintain a half belief that they are a good person. Dramas show people who are ‘good’ punishing people who are ‘bad’. There is nothing new in this as crime shows and courtroom dramas have been around since the early days of tv but what is changing is that the ‘good’ people use methods and have personalities that are not so different from the bad. All that matters is who is labeled as being good or bad. Using those methods are ok as long as its the good guy. Of course self delusions and rationalizations allow us to label ourselves as the good guy and those we don’t like or wish to have some advantage over as being the bad guy. It almost becomes fun to see injustice enforced as justice. I think 24 is a good example of this. Of course not all shows are to this extreme but it shows that we as a society are moving in certain directions.
One of the dangers of the increasing level of barely conscous malevalence, denial and self rationalizations in societiy is that it makes people more susceptibe to being manipulated. For people who have a greater sophisitication with these matters and are in a position to use it over large groups of poeple such as politicans and thier campaigns or media networks then all they have to do is pull the right strings to get a reaction. All you need to do is provide flimsy trains of logic (and I use that word very loosely) to let people think that their racism is actually a love of freedom and a disgust with big government. Not all who do not like big government are racist but some are. There seems to be a nod and a wink between manipulator and the manipulated. Give us the rationalizations and justified anger and we will perform.
The Republicans, conservatives and Democrats, liberals both partake in this kind of manipulation. Democrats are very willing to sound at times like a revolutionary force when campaingning but then act very different when in office. This is however not just politics as usual but is instead done with the nod and wink that Republicans use. Many Democrats like to trumpet that we have a person of color in the office of the President but I wonder how many would trumpet him if he actually made significant changes rather than just glowing speeches and enacting legislation that mostly keeps the status quo. Many Democrats like to see themselves as morally superior to Republicans and are eager to embrace something that allows them to maintain this beleif while clutching to whatever power or advangtage they feel they have.
The desire to see oneslf as good, not responsible, powerless to make changes etc. fits into the power structures of American society. Those at the top maintain their power and wealth while those at the bottom get to indulge in their set of rationalizations. The world can’t be changed so why should I be informed or participate. Why should I think about it because it causes me pain. For a society that is supposed to work hard and play hard i.e. produce and consume, there is little room for knowledge or self reflection that can cause pain.
To see the self and other destuction that can be wrought more easily with denail and low self realization on a more global scale one can look at the issue of global warming. Is there truly global warming and what is the cause, natural, man made or a combination are difficult and extremely complex questions. It is beyond mans ability to truly know these things but we can make some pretty educated guesses. However, some of the debate seems to revolve around not so much the science but the feelings associated with it. Some people when confroted with the possiblity of leaving a world that is badly damaged for their children would prefer to accept the ready made explanations by those who benefit in terms of wealth and power. Its not your fault, this is a natural phenomenon. Possibly, but the point is that people are believing not because of evidence but simply because it makes them feel better. So I can contiue to indulge in my luxuiries in a guilt free manner. It also lets me feel righteous indignation at tree huggers trying to usurp my freedom. These methods don’t have to work on everyone, just enough to keep the status quo in place. You can show commercials of smiley cartoons and people continuing to engage in behaviors that are potentially very harmful but its ok to be ok with it because their images make me feel good or at least reinforce my desire to not feel bad about it.
Will the blinders of self delusioin that is not completely submerged come off at midnight? I somehow doubt that they will.
I’m confused. Is this a give-and-take let’s discuss this type of thread, or a lecture series?
Sorry about making my post more than a few sentences long. I thought this was called great debates in which we express our ideas and open it up to others. Ideas can be complex and take some time to express. If anyone would like to actually express ideas on the content of what I had to say rather than the form I would appreciate it.
He has a point, as so ably brought up by the Rolling Stones. If I may bring ‘Mother’s Little Helper’ up? Honestly, though, I think we’re passing out of a chemical adjustment era, dating back to the Coca-Cola nostrums of the still-has-cocaine sort.
Except that doesn’t seem complex, just needlessly loquacious.
It’s hardly debatable as such, it’s all just a meandering diatribe… I wouldn’t even know where to start unraveling it… or what the actual point is. It could just be that I’m not a native English speaker, but what I get out of it comes down to “blah blah…drugs are bad m’kay… 24… blah blah politics…”
Oh well… let’s take a stab at it anwyways
Tru dat. Otherwise cognitive dissonance ensues…
Ya, the aforementioned cognitive dissonance is uncomfortable.
Determined? From the juxtaposition of voluntary and determined it would appear that “determined” refers to something involuntary, correct? External forces? This appears to make no sense at all. Furthermore, as you’re describing something that is pretty much a basic funtion of the human psyche, I cannot see how it could become “increasingly” prevalent… any more than I could how breathing is going to become increasingly prevalent… irregardless of scope or scale… especially as MOST people engage in it.
Actually, I think you’ll find the opposite to be true… and I think you’ll also discover that the word you keep using doesn’t mean what you think it means. You’re making the claim, that not knowing yourself is a competitive advantage…which I just cannot see.
Yes. Same goes with pretty people, and tall people. What I don’t get is how did you get from avoiding reflection to self-confidence. It sounds like you’re saying all people lack self confidence… but some manage to appear as they don’t because they don’t really know how worthless they are. Bitter much?
Huh? Punished? Simple arithmetic ought to show why this is… if half the people get more, the other half gets less. Is there a point coming?
Talk about unsubstantiated claims. You’re saying that self-confident people are in fact harming others deliberately? Are you sure you’re not mistaking them with sociopaths? Yes, appearing positive DOES have advantages in some situations, and yes, self confident people might on general be happier. That’s a far cry from “behaviors harmful to others”… and how that could be construed as “action” baffles me utterly. Btw, thoughts aren’t, as such, productive in a business setting. Daydreaming simply has no financial value.
Sociopaths again. … AH, now I see what you’re getting at. You’re NOT talking about self-awareness, you’re talking about sociopaths… and claiming they choose to be that way. And that all self-confident people are sociopaths. And the poor little shy guys with big thoughts and no friends are under attack from sociopaths… which based on your whining seem include the vast majority of the earth’s population.
O-k, I’m done with this.
…you’re a loony.
This site calls for people not to call each other liars or other derogatory remarks so as to maintain a civil level of discourse. I think that using looney would fall into a similarly meaningless and unsubstantial catergory. Childish name calling says more about the person using it. But I will answer the points you made.
What I am trying to say is contained in the first paragraph in my thesis statement. I do not think that people are black and white, either wholely determined or completely voluntary. We are combinations with many shades of gray. I am making the argument that we are mostly voluntary and that poeple are increasingly making decisons that are harmful to themselves and others in response to changing social pressures and percieved narrow self interest. Addictions of various types are increasingly used to avoid seeing this about oneself and the world. People who see the current system as being to their advantage use name calling and intentional distortions against those who try to point out that this is going on. Shining a light on these machinations is the first part of getting things to change.
GHO57:
I think you made a great and interesting point about avoiding cognitive dissonance being a strong motivating, or rather ‘repelling’ factor. It makes a lot of sense and I hadn’t thought of it that way before.
Your other arguments are interesting as well, but your confrontative attitude and mixed in ad hominems really undermines their value unnecessarily.