Sometimes sibling issues alone are enough to generate this kind of behavior. A supplement to a good medical exam (because food allergy would seem a likely culprit in my experience), would be the book ‘Siblings without Rivalry’, which has methods for helping two kids who formerly did not coexist well manage to coexist effectively (even if they never ‘click’). There’s a book on food allergies called “Is this your child?” that helps parents understand some of the really freaky out of control behaviors that come from allergies.
Not having been there, though, it is hard to tell what the issue might be. I’d suggest the medical checkup first, because it is the least likely to cause a ‘you think we’re bad parents’ reaction. At the same time, it is a serious enough suggestion that it may be all the additional pressure they need to decide that their worries are well founded, and worth action (I will bet that they worry, but don’t know what to do).
Ditto on the Siblings without Rivalry recommendation. If your sister is at all open to advice and help, that book and How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk, both by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish, would make a wonderful little present.
It’s of course impossible for us to tell from one incident if something is physically or psychologically wrong here, or if the family is just locked into some seriously self-destructive patterns. Some better parenting skills will help in any case. I recommended these books because they give advice about maintianing discipline without being a “meanie”, which might appeal to your sister. I hope your brother-in-law isn’t as unconcerned as he sounds, because if he really thinks this is normal he’s going to make it tough for everyone to change.
I’ve been on the “victim” end of the bully-victim sibling pairing, and believe me, it’s no fun. But the “bully” is usually not happy anyway, and in the long run it makes the whole family miserable and totally ruins the relationship between the two siblings. It is not just kids being kids and it needs to be stopped ASAP.
(not to draw attention away from the above recommendations…)
Sleep disorders are another thing that can generate disruptive behaviors like that - sleep apnea in particular.
And yes, the How to talk book is wonderful. My second-oldest sister gave it to me when I had my first son. I was offended (she has no kids, who is SHE to tell ME … yadda yadda yadda). Long story short, I was nice to her about the gift, and have blessed her name many times since. It is the single most useful parenting book I’ve got (followed closely by the Siblings book).
IAA licensed counselor.
I work a great deal with children, although 8 yrs would be pretty young for cognitive work, maybe play therapy if the kid has been traumatized in any way.
The kid and parents need therapy, actually the kid needs assessment, and if any changes are needed the parents would be the ones to implement them, so really they probably need the therapy more (not because they’re bad or crazy or anything, but because they have the most ability to affect change).
Good luck telling them so, how good is your relationship with your sister? Can you tell her this in an “I’m concerned” type of way, or will it come off as an attack?
yosemite, that is exactly how the younger one is starting to behave. When her sister came and took her book away from her yesterday, she just said very quietly and resignedly “I did have that first, you know”. Her mother didn’t even notice the book getting taken away from her by her bullying older sister even though she was right there. My mom is living there at the moment (the kids’ grandmother), and the younger one comes to her very upset and clings to her when the older one is freaking out (Grandma tries very hard to give the younger one the attention that her parents don’t seem able to give her).
That’s a lot of good advice, people. Thank you very much. I have to think on this and figure out how I can present some of these options to my sister without her taking it as an attack.
Just some follow-up info from my perspective as the uncle in this mess.
I have visited the family in question exactly once in three years when the 8 y.o. wasn’t acting up. On every other occasion (we visit maybe 6 times a year or more), she has been a holy terror. She and her sister are extremely spoiled, but also have no boundaries set for them – bad behaviour is rarely punished and punishments are inconsistent and rarely enforced. Generally, bad behaviour is responded to with bargaining and appeasement. Without a doubt in my mind, the 8 y.o. is in charge of the asylum and knows that she need only scream loud enough to get her way.
From what I’ve heard through grandma (living over there with the family), 8 y.o. is fairly well-behaved when her parents aren’t around, her school grades are very good, and her teachers love her. She just becomes a different kid once the parents show up on the scene. Also, someone asked if disciplining the kid was shared by all adults on scene – it’s not and grandma has been specifically asked not to reprimand the kids for bad behaviour because, ironically, the parents feel it’s their job exclusively.
8 y.o. is an attention seeker and will not abide by being anything less than the centre of attention, so she feels the need to get in the middle of everything and be as disruptive as possible until the room has her undivided attention. This often spills over to her treatment of her sister – if 4 y.o is playing quietly by herself, 8 y.o. will come over and take over the game, usually pushing 4 y.o. out entirely. When 4 y.o. moves on to something else, 8 y.o. moves in to take that over as well. All without consequence.
IMO (not an expert, but I have done some reading and taken an early childhood development class) the kid does not have a medical condition, beyond being a challenge. The child desperately needs boundaries and thrives in environments where she has them (like school), but acts out with her parents because she is searching for the line and never finds it. I believe the parents are responsible for the problems with this child and are likely to wind up with one kid in prison and the other in therapy (although I’m hopeful that 4 y.o. will still turn out ok – she seems like a pretty tough little kid and she is getting a modicum of support from her extended family, even if her parents do nothing).