I was reading the GI Joe and socialism thread (I can’t remember where it was and I can’t find it so I will have a look after I’ve composed this thread) and I got to the bit where the OP said socialism wouldn’t work because of human nature re:greed/envy/ the unwillingness to give away what you’ve made/earned.
If another person has a better toy/car/girlfriend etc… than me I don’t feel even the slightest bit of envy for them. I am actually happy for them. Sure I want a nice car, nice wife, lots of money etc, but I don’t envy those that have those things.
I am also not greedy. I earn what I believe to be a good wage, but I do not feel a sense of loss if I give any of it away (as long as there is enough left to enable me to live the lifestyle that I live, and that what I give away will benefit someone somehow)
Are there many people like me or is greed and envy quite common?
If so, is G&E so common because it is so common? Or, is a person growing up in a society of G&E likely to be G&E?
Will a person growing up in a society without G&E develop them?
Could there be a society where G&E are frowned upon like rape is in the current society (rape is a human desire for sex, just like Greed/envy are human desires for wealth. if one is Ostracized strongly why not the other?)
I know rape is a strong thing to compare greed and envy to. The reason I did so was to make the point that both are desires, and both cause suffering if acted upon.
Rape contributes to the ruining of a person and their families life.
Greed and Envy contribute to poverty and suffering (not directly, but you know what I mean)
No, Lobsang, you’re not alone. Got a real kick out of the thread.
I really don’t think greed is as rampant as you think it is. There is a good-sized chunk of the population that is greedy and envious, but they are in the minority. Most folks I think are content with a reasonably comfortable lifestyle. And I also think most folks have enough altruism in their nature that, if they can afford it, giving a bit to help someone else out would not cause them any psycological distress.
BTW, I disagree with the premise that Socialism is bad because hey, if everyone makes the same amount of money, nobody would be motivated to excel at anything. I think the opposite would be true. If guarunteed the basics of food, clothing, and shelter, more people would be motivated to enter occupations in which they would work for joy of doing the work they’re doing Thus, if someone could work 20 hours a week and be fully supported, they could then go to school, learn a trade or profession that they would enjoy doing, and the quality of goods and services would increase as a whole, because they take pride in their professionalism or craftsmanship, rather than doing things half-assed at some crappy job where their talents are wasted and they’re barely making enough money to keep the power company from cutting off the juice.
Hmm. I got so involved in reading the GI Joe thread, I lost track of Lobsang’s point.
Anyhoo, yes, I do think it’s possible to have a culture in which Greed and Envy are frowned upon. There is a strong undercurrent of this in our culture, and I think that it’s becoming a more popular attitude.
Sorry don’t have any cites, but there are increasing numbers of people who are making conscious decisions to scale back their lifestyles, live in a more modest house, drive a more modest car, etc. in order to be able to spend time that would otherwise be spent working to make money doing things like, oh, raising their children, engaging in relaxing activities that reduce stress, stuff like that.
Right now, I’m going to school to become a massage therapist. Financially, I’m hanging on by my fingernails because I had to cut back on my work hours to accomodate my class schedule. When I finish school, I will have to deal with finding work in a very competitive market.
In a socialist economy, I wouldn’t have to deal with the financial stresses I’m currently under. I could work the minimum number of hours a week it would take to cover my basic living expenses and be able to focus more of my energy on my studies. Also, when I graduate, I would be quite happy working out the muscle aches of those who chose to grow crops because they enjoy making things grow and knowing that what they grow helps to feed people, or those who choose to work in more production oriented fields because they like to make things with their hands (I actually fantasize about giving massages to Big Paul Tuttle and the American Chopper crew. I’m sick, I need help.)
I’m not greedy in the sense of wanting many of the luxuries. I don’t want a fancy car. I’m content with my little apartment. I don’t have many clothes and the only jewelry I own has a sentimental value to me.
I share what I have for the most part, but I start getting stingy when it’s either something that I have worked very hard to get or the person is just taking too much advantage of my previous generousity.
There’s a form of greed that I have noticed a lot over the past few years. It’s when it comes to food. I have seen people gorge themselves with food. They over indulge, not simply because the food is so wonderful, but more because they would rather they have it than you do. My former step-father was a prime example of this. Whenever we went out to eat I would normally bring home leftovers since I’m not a big eater. Within the first ten minutes we were home my leftovers would be gone. He ate it simply because he couldn’t stand the thought that I might possibly be the one to eat it later.
Once he yelled at my mother because she took a leftover steak to work for lunch. He wanted to eat it. My mother offered to cook him another steak, but that wouldn’t satisfy him. He wanted that specific steak, not any other. Although he is an extreme, he is not the only case of this I’ve ever seen.
I believe the new US dollar bills will replace the ridiculous slogan “In God We Trust” with a true-to-life slogan “Greed and Envy Is The American Way!”. Let’s face it, no matter how righteous a person you are, we’re just lambs marching to the beat of the Wall Street slaughter. Can’t wait for the next tycoon to cause the next middle class typhoon! Blow my worth away! Yes, I was born for the rich to exploit. Don’t you know it’s my proper place in this world? Wish I could afford some rolls or breads, but the rich keep telling me to buy cakes instead.
For man being supposedly being above the animals, you sure got me fooled! I don’t see any difference…except the pigs are smart enough to not associate with man! Thank goodness for the little people, or the rich might actually have to break a sweat themselves and soil their clothes. They pay us to do that for them, don’t you know! I don’t know how airplanes can fly above their collective stuck-up nose.
“Have you seen the little piggies with their starched-white shirts…with their piggie wives living piggie lives?” (Beatles) Now, what was all that talk about not gleening the fields and giving a tithe? Oh yeah, “Frankly my dear, I don’t give a tithe!”…that’s the ticket!
“It’s not the Earth the meek inherit; it’s the dirt!” (Camelot)
I get the impression that you lumping together eggregious examples like Enron or WorldCom with garden variety keeping-up-with-the-Jonses sort of stuff, which seriously clouds the issue, IMO. Whereas a fiasco like Enron could be reasonably compared with a rape, feeling a little melancholy because your neighbors have nice cars and you don’t would be the equivalent of chatting up a bird at the pub.
There’s no reason to think that the garden variety desire to do “well” relative to one’s peers, neighbors, or comparison group of choice is pathological. Competition for territory, mates, and food has been the subject of myriad hours of nature documentaries, should we think that such a drive is automatically shut off when I.Q. hits a certain point? On the face of it, I might be a little suspicious if you were to claim that a feeling of relative poverty doesn’t make you feel a little sad.
This is why capitalism is good. Whether you want to describe the desire to do well in material terms a natural evolutionary artifact or a pathology, the fact is that a well-regulated competitive market uses this to trait to distribute information and goods in a way that maximizes the stock of well-being. (It does not guarantee a desirable distribution in the end, however, so one can always make the more-than-reasonable claim that the distribution needs to be altered.)
I don’t see any reason to cosider the desire to own (what one considers to be) nice things to be greed or envy any more than I would consider the wish to be with a wife as wonderful as X’s wife to be covetous (sp?). It seems a natural feeling that is not inherently evil or destructive. Animals may compete for territory, but I’ve never really heard of a species that instinctively kills for it.
Tangentially related, I would suggest this lecture as reading material:
I remember reading about a study of Harvards students in the August 15th Economist (with the fish farming cover). It claimed that most Harvard students would prefer getting a $50,000 raise if everyone else in the office got a $25,000 raise; to getting a $100,000 raise if everyone else got a $200,000 raise. One might draw the conclusion envy is as strong as greed, or that greed and envy are relative. Go nuts. The same study was said to say that greed and envy apply less to leisure. This is because a clear majority would choose getting four weeks vacation instead of two weeks vacation (if others got six weeks vacation) to getting three weeks vacation (if others stayed with a two week vacation).
Thank goodness for the little people, or the rich might actually have to break a sweat themselves and soil their clothes. They pay us to do that for them, don’t you know! I don’t know how airplanes can fly above their collective stuck-up nose.