I am not going to say that we don’t have classes in America but I do believe they are just a function of who you are at a given time in terms of money, education, occupation and demeanor. I hear that it is different even today in England. What is the class structure like in England in an everyday sense?
I’m English, and I’m eager to hear about this supposed class system too. I have not encountered it myself, but then I’m just lower-middle class petit bourgeoisie.
There’s a pretty good article from a recent edition of The Economist that discusses the state of class in modern Britain. It’s not quite what it used to be.
I will say that it is very, very disturbing as an American when I am over with Fierra and she is visiting her relatives, and they make mention of people as being “commoners”. I thought that sort of talk went out in the 1800’s, but I’ve heard it far too many times from too many different people. I find the use of the term disgusting, especially when people use it to refer to themselves as a group.
Why is the term disgusting? Most people can classify themselves to some group or other. Whether its middle-class, poor, black, white, etc…
I can’t make much sense of that Economist article. A lot of evidence that class means little in modern Britain, followed by a contradictory concluding paragraph warning of the dangers of class consciousness:
But class consciousness in Britain has diminished greatly in recent decades, while in the same period income inequality has increased.
It sounds rather bad to me but I only have a vague idea of what it means. Stuff like that is why I started this thread. I don’t see how referring to a person as common is a good thing. If I adopted the term here in my own world in the U.S., I wouldn’t know how to apply it. Are my plumber and contractor commoners? They make more money than I do. What about the girl at the coffee place? She has a Ph.D. and is working on a screenplay. The term seems to contain value judgements and even worse, can’t hope to accomplish any meaningful differentiation in my mind.
My understanding is that the difference is that in England, class is considered both much more fixed and much more important - you have a class, you’re going to stay in that class, and your class will have an effect on the way other people perceive you.
It doesn’t make sense to me but I’m not English. I’m American and we’re nuts about race not class - in America you have a race, you’re going to stay in that race, and your race will have an effect on the way other people perceive you.
To describe someone as “common” (not “commoner”, which means something slightly different) is not much different to a middle class American describing someone as “trailer trash”. That British people can be snobbish does not mean that a class system exists.
If you had to categorise recent British Prime Ministers by social class, I think it would go something like this:
Tony Blair - well-heeled middle class
John Major - working class
Margaret Thatcher - lower middle class
James Callaghan - working class
Harold Wilson - middle class
While US presidents by race woud go:
George W Bush - white
Bill Clinton - white
George H W Bush - white
Ronald Reagan - white
Jimmy Carter - white
So it seems to me that class, whatever it means, matters less in Britain than race does in America.
You may very well be correct although your examples of Prime Ministers seemed to be on the same end of the rainbow as well.
The question isn’t about the U.S. versus England, it is simply to get a better understanding of what lots of people from all different walks of life and nationalities are referring to. You may not be able to see it because you grew up with it. To us, the class model in the U.S. is pretty straightforward. I hear it is more complex there. That is what I wondered about.
You’ve encompassed my thoughts. One being a “commoner” means that you were born “common”, and will always be “common”, and no amount of good deeds, success, or anything will elevate you. Even if you were somehow made a peer you would still be talked about as being a commoner who got above yourself.
To me, it’s akin to thinking someone is inferior because of their race, because no matter what you do and how well you do it, bigots can look down on you for your race. And for people to describe themselves as “commoners” seems to be akin to saying “but I’m just this race, and I’ll never be as good as the master race”.
I admit of course that I’m not English, nor would I ever pretend to be on a message board, so I know I do not look at the word the same way as an English person would. But my purpose for posting in a GQ thread was really to add the anecdotal fact that I experience a large number of people IME in the UK who take class very seriously. And some who do not, obviously.
Usram, heads of government is one way to compare. But how about heads of state?
George W Bush - white
Bill Clinton - white
George H W Bush - white
Ronald Reagan - white
Jimmy Carter - white
vs
Elizabeth II - member of the royal family
George VI - member of the royal family
Edward VIII - member of the royal family
George V - member of the royal family
Edward VII - member of the royal family
So class is still worth something in the British government.
Little Nemo You forget we had no choice in the head of state appointment
Tell that to the Stuarts.
Okay, a less flippant answer to the issues raised. Yes, obviously it’s possible in the UK for somebody not from the upper class to achieve political power. But that doesn’t mean class doesn’t matter anymore. If Condoleeza Rice or Colin Powell gets elected President, would that mean that being black is no longer an issue in America?
And consider that Usram was able to list the class of the last five British Prime Ministers. If you asked the average American what class Jimmy Carter or Ronald Reagan belonged to they wouldn’t even understand the question. The most likely answer you’d get would be the default “middle class” which is basically the same class that 95% of Americans belong to. Class is only noticable to Americans in its most extreme manifestations and then only in the awareness that a person doesn’t belong to the middle class.
As I said before the best analogy I can make is that British feel about class the way Americans feel about race. It doesn’t matter if we think it’s a good thing or a bad thing, we realize it exists are real even if its reasons are irrational.
I’d say the biggest single way in which class affects people on an everyday basis is with accents. These carry with them all sorts of stereotypes and baggage, and Little nemo is right to draw a parallel with the way racist ones can be ingrained and subconcious.
I’ll admit I’m prone to viewing things in terms of class, based on people’s accent. And as is often the case with stereotypes, there’s often an element of truth. It’s easy to assume that somebody well-spoken has an upper-class private-education background, and it may well turn out to be true. And strong regional accents get associated with lower-class backgrounds, and can easily be the cause of discrimination.
True story to illustrate the latter: I met a bloke in the pub last night, who had a strong Mancunian accent, and I’d put money on him not being from a middle-class family. His interest in the Telegraph crossword, and his ability at solving it, surprised me - and immediately I felt guilty about this, because I had no reason other than stereotyping.
Of course, along with accents, all sorts of other things can be indications of someone’s background, little elements of their appearance or behaviour. Nothing which by itself could be picked out as indicative of anything, but combined they can give out strong signals.
GorillaMan
I’m from Manchester and I read The Telegraph and I also enjoy the crossword…I’m just a working class oik 
I unnerstand what you mean tho’ 'frinstance whenever I hear a strong West Country accent I immediately associate with The Wurzels
Ah, but do you sound like Liam Gallagher breathing helium? 
IMHO Much is made of class in the U.K., mainly by the likes of the Socialist Worker, but it seems to me that there are two seperate class distinctions or axes: those who work vs those who don’t, and those with money vs those without.
The whole upper / middle / lower class thing was destroyed with the introduction of a state education system which meant that everyone who wanted it could get a decent education and by the introduction of inheritance tax which meant that wealth no longer flowed down the line uninterrupted.
The keys to success in modern Britain are education, charm, and drive; not the wealth of your parents.