I can’t think of any way of telling someone that their religion is ridiculous, and not having it be offensive and obnoxious, and therefore ridiculing the person. Religion is an extremely personal thing, and for some people a part of their identity. To ridicule a person’s religion is by definition an offensive statement.
I had assumed that she was taking a religious day off, not as part of her personal vacation time. If it is her personal vacation time, then a boss can ask, as one human to another, what her plans were. She doesn’t have to tell her.
But, if you were a boss and had an employee that said they wanted Yom Kippur, Christmas, and Vishnu’s birthday off, you’d be asking them questions.
Employee Religious Holidays According to this link and employer can deny an employee’s request if it places undue hardship upon the business. That pretty much means to me that the employer can ask why the person wants to take the day off. I don’t know where people get the idea you can’t ask why your employee wants a day off.
Don’t get me wrong. For the purpose of this thread I’m more critical of ‘dancing with religious book types’ than I’d normally be. I work in an Islamic country, so I’m pretty circumspect around religious issues. The boss shouldn’t be reacting to her employee’s goofy beliefs like she is and should keep her mouth shut. SJ knows her boss and what she thinks about her religion, so either she doesn’t care that what she says is causing the conflict, or she is hoping the boss continues to act that way in order to cash in on the lawsuit lottery.
If we want to talk about respect then it should go both ways. If I was SJ, I’d just shut up about religion, period. If her boss continues making comments (and it seems she is trying to stop) then she should talk to her boss again, or if that is not effective, then maybe she should go to HR. I guess it depends on how much you respect or care about your boss and want to help her out.
I just think it is unfair that someone can essentially testify and no one is allowed to call them on their bullshit. No matter what the law allows.
Uzi, I’m not sure how things are where you are, but my company doesn’t distinguish between religious holidays off and non-religious personal days (aside from the Christian holidays that everyone gets off, obviously).
In that context, I’m pretty sure that legally, a religious holiday should be treated no differently than a personal day when evaluating undue hardship, and that it’s therefore inappropriate to ask about the reason for taking a personal day off.
This is especially true if a boss knows they will be unable to keep themselves from making fun of an employee for being religious, in my opinion. I’m a bit unsure what your hypothetical multi-faith observation has to do with this thread, although I should note that all UK employees get Christmas, St Stephen’s Day and Easter Monday off, as well as other bank holidays being based on Whit Monday. So I suppose all UK non-Christians get the benefit of those days off work although we don’t observe the holidays. On the other hand, religious non-Christians have to use up our personal days for our observances.
I think there is some misunderstanding about who is initiating the subject of religion. One of the things I am looking for advice about is how to avoid talking about it when someone else (either my boss or a co-worker) brings it up.
For example, although I didn’t mention this for the sake of conciseness, I tried to brush off “why are you eating bacon?” by saying “Uh, because it’s delicious!” My co-worker laughed and said, “No, I mean, because you’re Jewish.” I’m not sure how I could have avoided talking about my religion there, although I would have preferred to. Even so, my boss jumped in to make fun of Reform Judaism almost immediately after my co-worker finished asking the question. I really have no idea how I could have avoided the topic.
I thought that a concise, two-sentence summation of the Reform attitude toward kosher laws (“because my movement doesn’t believe that’s important. done and dusted”) would be the best way to stop the conversation without being rude to my co-worker, although I would have preferred not to talk about it at all.
For the Simchat Torah remarks, I believe from her tone that my boss assumed it was a Hebrew phrase, and brought it up to me in person at our workplace so that she could make fun of whatever it was. Again, I’m not sure (and am looking for advice) on how I could have answered her question without (a) lying or (b) giving me an
I’m not sure what part of that is “essentially testifying”, unless you mean that my boss is essentially testifying about her non-religious atheism?
Some more happened today: she has not talked about Judaism specifically lately, but today she brought in a copy of The Watchtower (?) that some Jehovah’s Witnesses (?) had left on her doorstep, and read aloud from it to make fun of it to everyone on the desk. After about five minutes she shook her head and said, “This is making me too angry!” and went back to work.
It makes me feel on edge because she is the one who keeps bringing up religion, and I don’t know if/when she’s going to try to bring up my Judaism again to make fun of me for it. I’m trying to figure out ways to deflect the conversation if she, or anyone else at work, brings up religion directly to me.
I appreciate the conversation that is going on in this thread about legal rights concerning harassment in the workplace.
Say you’ve taken your 5th personal day off. You don’t expect a boss to ask what the heck is going on?
Or, it is end of the month budget time and you are integral to the process. You want a personal day and your boss has to make deadlines or the business will face penalties if reports aren’t done or invoices paid, etc… If we assume the link I provided applies to us, then the boss can deny you a religious day off if it would affect the business negatively. How does he know if it is a religious day, a day at the park, or a day at the hospital for an emergency medical test to determine the extent of a malignant cancer?
Or, do you expect to prance into the boss’s office and get any day off you’d like?
Boss: “Heck, why not. It’s not as if we need you around here anyways…Hey?!”
“Sorry, it is best if we don’t talk about religion at work”.
She’s crackers. I had assumed she was at least marginally competent in her job. Sorry.
Record any incidents and talk to HR about it or talk to her boss directly. That is if you think it isn’t any good to talk to her. I’d talk to her if she was my boss and say that she was taking a big chance in doing what she was doing, so she should cut it out.
While Watchtower is indeed T3h Stoopid (Every issue: “[modern problem] therefore more God!”) most sensible people just shrug and drop it into the recycling bin, not read it aloud to an unwilling audience. Your boss clearly has some larger issues that have nothing to do with you. As others have said, start keeping notes about dates and instances in case this does escalate further and she actively starts harassing you.
SJ, I don’t think there’s any misunderstanding at all. You see, you are religious!
And what’s more, you are of a religion that some people don’t understand. And if that’s not enough, you have the utter gall not to be ashamed of it & keep your mouth shut when questioned. So any mention of your faith is automatically witnessing, or boss-baiting, and you are thusly making things tough on your boss & creating a hostile work environment. Bad, naughty SecondJudith! You are inviting mockery so you can cash in on a lawsuit.
So Uzi, being in a Muslim country, do you assume that if a woman is beaten or raped for going out with a spot of skin showing that the bitch was asking for it?
Er, yes, I do, and no, I wouldn’t expect five personal days to raise any flags. Where are you that five personal days in a year is exceptional? UK mandates a minimum of 5.6 weeks of statutory leave each year, which is 28 days for a five-day workweek. We are free to use them on whatever we like. This includes:
- first day of Ramadan
- attending to a Richard Dawkins lecture
- going to Spain for a week
- cleaning out cupboards
- putting feet up and watching football
It doesn’t include doctor’s appointments or tests, that’s under medical leave. I thought this was the standard way that paid leave works in most countries, but I don’t have first-hand experience of any other systems than the UK.
If it were problematic at work for me to be off for a certain day, then it wouldn’t matter whether I was taking off for Shavuot or for the first day of the Ashes.
Dammit, busted! I’ll just flutter off and tell all my friends in the cabal that runs the banks not to wait up for that big lawsuit payout cheque. 
If she is flaunting her beliefs it is one thing,if she is just practicing them then that is another. I would tell one who was trying to convert me to a religion the same thing. We can practice any faith but not push it on someone else. If the boss doesn’t give her a religious day off then that is the Boss’s right. She could then look for another job if it is that important to her.
A little off topic, but I get a lot of emails from fundalmentalist friends who want me to pass on their worries about losing their religion. Because they are so worried about not having "In God We trust on the coins,or “Under God” in the pledge because only 14% of those polled didn’t care. To me if one trusts in God they would trust that the God they believe in can handle things by Himself. I do not think a powerful God needs a human to handle His business. To me it shows their faith is weak. The world isn’t any better since "Under God was added to the pledge. Even Jesus is quoted as saying people give Him lip service but their hearts are far from Him.
I listened to a program on radio where laywers answer questions and they stated that a boss has the right to fire some one if the wore red shoes and the boss didn’y like it…I was taken back as I couldn’t believe that was really legal.
I think we are confusing things. I look at a personal day as something outside your vacation days. You are correct if you are asking for your vacation days off then it isn’t any of your boss’ business. But even vacation day timings are things you arrange with your boss. Normally, when I worked in a regular office, we had to arrange our vacation days up to six months in advance and get approval for those days.
I don’t assume that, nor do I agree with it, but a lot of the courts in Muslim countries do. What’s your point?
I think you should mention to this co-worker that you are uncomfortable talking about religion in the workplace, especially in front of the boss. You don’t have to mention the word harassment, if you don’t want to, but you can point out that there is a time and place for everything, and this is not it.
Then, later, when you eat bacon and she asks why, you say “ask me later” or some other code phrase meaning “not in front of the boss”.
I’d handle the book from Amazon similarly. “What’d you get?” “Nothing that would interest you” but make sure she understands that you’ll happily share the title of the latest bestseller, smutty romance, or golf tips. (Or don’t, but being willing to share other titles seems to fit the friendly aspect of your workplace better).
Reading something aloud to ridicule it to co-workers doesn’t strike me as a very professional way to act. That’s extra bad if you know that it’s something one of your employees takes seriously, though it wouldn’t be terribly professional even if it wasn’t.
Here’s an example with the religious aspect taken out:
I have no respect whatsoever for the book “The Secret”. I think it’s a terrible philosophy and a bad influence on people, and it makes me re-consider my general opposition to book burning. If you say you take it seriously, I will think quite a bit less of your intelligence than I did before you told me that.
However, if I had a colleague who did take it seriously, I think I could talk to them about work-related matters, maybe even personal matters like “what did you do for Halloween this weekend”. I could and would avoid the topic of “The Secret”, or anything that would be likely to lead to that topic, around them. I certainly wouldn’t read aloud from “The Secret” and ridicule it at work.
I have always found that one simple question shuts down most evangelicals;
“If I may, let me ask you, is there anything at all that I could possibly say that would sway you from your faith?”
{To which they will always respond, ‘Hell no!’}
“Then I’m certain you’ll understand when I tell you I hold my beliefs just as firmly. Now can we move on to another topic, please? Thank you.”
Short, direct, polite, honest and, dare I say, a little elegant as well. It has never failed me.
This is how it works at every (American) employer I’ve had, as well.
IANAL, but the bold bit above sounds like a hostile work environment to me.
I think your experience must not apply here because I have no idea what you’re talking about, and it doesn’t appear that Judith does either (correct me if I’m wrong, Judith). With the (American) employers I’ve had, I get either sick leave plus vacation leave (two separate allotments that are tracked separately), or Paid Time Off (aka PTO) which is a single allotment that can be used as sick time, vacation time, and/or other personal time. I have never heard of an employer who has an entirely separate allotment for personal time, distinct from sick or vacation leave. In fact, in my experience the only real distinction between sick and vacation leave is that sick leave can be taken on less notice (calling in sick that morning as opposed to requesting a week off two months from now). The only time I’ve ever seen an employer question time off is if the employee seems to be abusing the policy (for example, calling in sick every Monday) – and that almost never happens.
As for arranging time off in advance, policies differ from employer to employer, and it didn’t seem like it was unusual at Judith’s office to request time off less than six months in advance.
FWIW, at just about every place I’ve worked in Canada, vacation days are treated as separate from sick days. Two (or three, in some provinces) weeks of vacation are mandated, though.
I haven’t worked in Canada for over 8 years, but from my experience, if I needed a day off I’d just ask my boss and he’d give it to me. I’d make it up at some other time. I have no reason to think I wouldn’t have been given a day off for a religious reason if I’d asked for it. That would have been separate from vacation days or sick days.
I can imagine the conversation with my last boss in Canada:
Me: Hey, I need to take Wednesday off for religious reasons?
Boss: Hmmm?
Me: It is the annual sacrifice of the virgins to Gozer the Gozerian, the traveler and Lord of the Sebouillia.
Boss: Reformed or Fundamentalist?
Me: Oh, definitely old school. None of this new age stuff.
Boss: Okay then. Make sure you forward your email…HEY! You’re an atheist!
Me (channeling SJ): How dare you question my beliefs!
Here’s a question that just occurred to me. If there is no belief in god is there in fact a religion that SJ is attending, or is it just a cultural event? Can you have a religion without a god?
If you go by Wikipedia, Religion could apply to my being a member of a local bowling league given their broad interpretation.
Some info on Canadian laws
That’s fairly accurate, yes, depending on the job.