[QUOTE=Beware of Doug]
I guess ice and apostrophes don’t turn me on.
[/QUOTE]
I think you mean okina - Hawaiʻi - a lovable typographical character. Glottal stops are one of the things that make this country great - the rich variety and diversity of cultures. Shame on you, sir!
[QUOTE=acsenray]
See the disconnect?
If we have cause to be proud, then we should be proud, but we should keep our mouths shut about it. Do you go around on a daily basis telling people how proud you are of yourself and your personal accomplishments? Do you set aside one or more days of the year specifically for showing people how proud you are of yourself as an individual? If you did, everyone else would think you are a conceited ass, and rightly so. The same goes for national pride, in my view. Be proud if you think you have a cause to, but there is never a good reason to wave your pride in everyone’s faces.
[/QUOTE]
Ascenray: did you just come up with this idea now? Because I think it’s brilliant.
What our country needs is a national Yom Kippur of sorts. But we also need to keep Independence Day. Maybe put the National Day of Shame on July 3?
See, I’m a practicing Lutheran, and for me, one of the most important parts of the weekly worship service is the Confession and Absolution. The point is that we take a moment to reflect on all of our shortcomings, and then told, “That’s okay, now go and do good.” (Of course, as a believer, it is important that my sins are actually forgiven by God.)
In as much as the nation-as-a-person analogy (same as corporation-as-a-person?) works, it seems a similar thing would be good for the nation-person.
Also, Shame/Pride is not an either/or.
[QUOTE=Jamaika a jamaikaiaké]
Ascenray: did you just come up with this idea now?
[/quote]
Yes. You observed the very genesis of this little notion.
Actually, I was hoping it would sound ridiculous. But, hey, it should be entertaining.
I agree.
Wow. It’s like this guy just time-traveled from an Iraq War thread in 2003.
[QUOTE=acsenray]
I have been offended by ostentatious patriotism long before I was offended by this particular administration. We should be just as ashamed of displaying pride in our country as we should be as displaying pride in ourselves as individuals. President Bush early on mentioned the word “humility” with regard to international policy. Humility is a policy we should adopt as part of our collective face.
[/QUOTE]
How do you feel about football fans screaming and yelling for their team. Pretty ostentatious to me. People should feel good about themselves and what they have accomplished. America defeats a country in war then rebuilds that country and gives it back to the people. I am pretty proud about that kind of attitude. I don’t mind saying I am a patriot and proud of it.
[QUOTE=Trotsky]
Ok, would a crescent moon flag work better?
[/QUOTE]
Apparently two incredibly obvious facts have escaped your attention:
[QUOTE=lekatt]
How do you feel about football fans screaming and yelling for their team. Pretty ostentatious to me.
[/quote]
Ostentatious, yes, but also utterly trivial. In fact, in my personal dictionary, under “trivial” is a photograph of professional sports.
No argument there. I might also add that people should feel bad about themselves and the harm they’ve caused.
Is this the only effect that U.S. policy regarding anything domestic or international since 1776 has ever had? Even if you are talking about one, specific act, is this the only significant result? Even a policy that one might consider good overall is likely to have some bad effects. Isn’t it better to humbly consider all the implications of what one has done?
What you stated above was not an “attititude.” Furthermore, can you ascribe a single attitude to the entire nation?
I’m hoping that my nation grows into a more nuanced, more mature outlook toward itself and the world. There are few black-and-white situations. That should lead us to be a little more reflective about ourselves and our place in the world and try on a more self-effacing, humble attitude.
[QUOTE=Monty]
Apparently two incredibly obvious facts have escaped your attention:
Neither of which discounts my original point whatsover. I offered other options instead of the USA flag to fly.
[QUOTE=Trotsky]
Neither of which discounts my original point whatsover. I offered other options instead of the USA flag to fly.
[/QUOTE]
You had no original point–other than to get a reaction out of other posters. Giving someone an “option” to use an emblem that representrs land or values with whcich they are not associated is nothing more than snideness painted to look like sarcasm.
If you continue to spew your unsupported political claims and (now) thinly veiled insults, you are going to get yourself removed more swiftly than you had anticipated.
To everyone else: ignore that which is clearly nonsense posted for reaction. Let’s see if it has any actual contributions to make.
[ /Moderating ]
A moderator calling me a troll and an ‘it’…
Veddy interesting
[QUOTE=Trotsky]
A moderator calling me a troll and an ‘it’…
Veddy interesting
[/QUOTE]
The neutral pronoun is based on having seen no evidence of your sex (or even your gender) in any of your posts I have had to read.
The reference to trolling is an apt description of your behavior in this Forum, today. I am willing to consider that you have merely forgotten the first rule of Newsgroups and Message Boards–Lurk–and are posting without actually understanding the culture in which you are now posting. On the other hand, you have already demonstrated the behaviors of both a troll and a sock puppet, today, and while I am willing to extend the benefit of the doubt until more concrete evidence is provided, I would bet absolutely no money that I am in any way mistaken.
I am neither a troll nor a sock, but… Is there a new ‘posting’ limint on the non-conformist mentality? I called one person an idiot outright, and that was a violation.
I lurked a lot, and saw stuff that, frankly shocked me.
Digg, wiki, and here have such a leftist youth bias that it sometimes needs a kick, even if it kick alledgedly turns off other conservatives.
Telling persons that only bushists have a right to present as americans is the sort of kick that kicks back.
On the OP, if you want to fly the flag, fly the flag. A “Bring The Troops Home” poster next to it might help clarify your position to the teeming millions.
[QUOTE=begbert2]
Telling persons that only bushists have a right to present as americans is the sort of kick that kicks back.
On the OP, if you want to fly the flag, fly the flag. A “Bring The Troops Home” poster next to it might help clarify your position to the teeming millions.
[/QUOTE]
I couldn’t agree more. I fly the flag in front of my house, and it’s been the launching point for many a discussion about Iraq with my friends. Just yesterday (Memorial Day) I had a few friends over, and I asked one of my more gung-ho pro-war friends if he **still **thought it was a good idea to get into Iraq (He did. 
) when we got into a discussion about people who only fly their flag on holidays.
[QUOTE=Trotsky]
I am neither a troll nor a sock,
[/quote]
Prove it. Instead of three-line unsupportable assertions that always include sweeping generalizations against undefined groups, take the time to establish an actual point and defend it with genuine logic supported by cited facts.
[QUOTE=Trotsky]
but.. Is there a new ‘posting’ limint on the non-conformist mentality? I called one person an idiot outright, and that was a violation.
[/quote]
Actually, you have posted insults on at least five occasions: the 2d throughh 4th we cut you some slack on the grounds that you might not yet have seen Gaudere’s first admonition. It was only after you racked up an official Warning on your fifth violation that you stepped away from the insults. You may post as often as you wish. If you post 30 times the average of any other high count poster and 99% of your posts are unsupported drive-bys, often with insulting overtones, you will be seen as a troll. Your choice.
[QUOTE=Trotsky]
I lurked a lot, and saw stuff that, frankly shocked me.
[/quote]
No, you did not. Your wild-eyed claims (commies?) have been the sort of silliness intended to rile people up without any basis of fact and on several occasions (notably earlier in this thread) you made sweeping claims about what “everyone” was doing that are directly contradicted by many of the posts that had to have been included in your claims. (And no one who is as old as you have claimed to be has any reason to be “shocked” by the mild stuff that gets posted to this board. This is neither a freeper nor a moveon site (both of which you should have already read if your net surfing history is as you have described it).
[QUOTE=InvisibleWombat]
The United States flag isn’t owned by any individual or political party. The symbol is owned by our country as a whole, and on days like Memorial Day, it stands for something else specific. That flag on the pole outside is in memory of my two uncles that died in World War II, defending our country from outside attackers. There’s no political inference there whatsoever.
If people like Der Trihs become so worried that someone might actually construe them as George Bush supporters because they (gasp) fly their country’s flag on a day like Memorial Day, then yeah, they’re trying to hand the flag over to the conservatives as their very own private symbol. But if everyone flies the flag, it can’t be usurped as the symbol of any one party.
[/QUOTE]
I wasn’t worried; I don’t even have a flag. It’s the OP who is worried. And it doesn’t matter how many people fly the flag; it can be interpeted that way if people choose to do so.
[QUOTE=InvisibleWombat]
[li]An system that doesn’t lock people into a single economic class. Sure, it’s hard to break out of your class, but it’s a lot more doable than in many other countries![/li][/QUOTE]
And less so than in other countries. This isn’t the 19th century.
And why should I be proud of America, no matter how good or bad it is ? I didn’t found it, didn’t build it, I’m not in charge, and I have little if any effect on it. It’s just where I live; being proud of America would be like being proud of a rock because I’m sitting on it at the moment.
And if I move to another country should I be proud of that one ? Why ? A third country, a fourth ? One of my problems with patriotism and flag waving is that it’s silly and empty most of the time in my eyes. For most people, it’s pride without reason, without basis.
[QUOTE=InvisibleWombat]
The United States flag isn’t owned by any individual or political party. The symbol is owned by our country as a whole, and on days like Memorial Day, it stands for something else specific. That flag on the pole outside is in memory of my two uncles that died in World War II, defending our country from outside attackers. There’s no political inference there whatsoever.
If people like Der Trihs become so worried that someone might actually construe them as George Bush supporters because they (gasp) fly their country’s flag on a day like Memorial Day, then yeah, they’re trying to hand the flag over to the conservatives as their very own private symbol. But if everyone flies the flag, it can’t be usurped as the symbol of any one party.
I’ll bite. Sure, the U.S. has problems. It’s not perfect. But we have a lot of things I’m proud of (in no particular order):
[ul]
[li]The constitution. Sure, there are politicians bent on taking out their least-favorite parts, but most Americans believe in it, and it has stood up remarkably well overall.[/li][li]Public lands. What other country sets aside such huge tracts of land for the enjoyment of every citizen?[/li][li]The free press. Sure, we have wacko rightists and wacko leftists, but that’s part of what having a free press means.[/li][li]An system that doesn’t lock people into a single economic class. Sure, it’s hard to break out of your class, but it’s a lot more doable than in many other countries![/li][li]A democracy. Setting aside all of the “Bush might as well be a king” arguments, he’s gone at the end of term 2. We’re free to replace him with anyone we choose. Any politician can be voted out, and if they do something egregious enough, they can be impeached, removed from office, and even imprisoned.[/li][li]The right to trail by a jury of your peers. It ain’t a perfect system, but I haven’t seen a better one.[/li][li]A free market. It may be difficult, but it’s still possible for individual innovation to build new businesses.[/li][li]Community colleges. Anyone can get an education if they want it. Back in the 70’s, it cost me under $20 per unit to attend a community college.[/li][/ul]
I could make this a very long list. You can show me the problems with each point that I made above. I already said it isn’t perfect. But when you put them all together, I feel we do a pretty good job of it all.
We have our good Presidents and our bad Presidents. They all have to leave office when they’re done. Our foreign policy will probably look very different in a couple of years. Don’t abandon the country because you don’t like one leader or group of leaders.
Finally, to Boyo Jim (and Acsenray): This isn’t an “America: love it or leave it” thing. I’m really curious. Why do you live here? If you really detest the U.S., to the point that you can’t find one single reason to be proud of it, why haven’t you moved to Canada or Brazil or Australia or someplace you can feel good about? If I hated where I lived so much, I’d be out of here on the first boat.
[/QUOTE]
I never said I hate this country, and I’m offended by that interpretation. America is no longer standing behind the ideals that made it what it was. By and large I agree that your list of things to be proud of is a good one, except that America is rejecting many of the items on it as a matter of executive policy.
Would it be accurate to restate your position as follows? “No matter what America does in the world today or plans to do next year, flying the flag is appropriate because of the many good things we’ve done in the past.”
I can’t say I really have an arguement against that, but I just don’t agree with it. This country is doing bad things in the world right now and has been for the last several years, and AFAIC this is not an appropriate time to show pride in America.
As for your list of things to be proud of – well, it appears you’re proud of our history, and that’s great. We could get into a discussion about how many things that are on your list are under assault by the current adminsitration, most especially the free press and trial by jury. But that’s really for another thread.
Please correct me if I’ve misrepresented your position on flying the flag.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
And if I move to another country should I be proud of that one ? Why ? A third country, a fourth ? One of my problems with patriotism and flag waving is that it’s silly and empty most of the time in my eyes. For most people, it’s pride without reason, without basis.
[/QUOTE]
This is one of the reasons I’m trying to find some unit pennants to honor the people I cared about who fought under said flag–it’s that legacy that I’m proud of most of all, and flying the flag will bring a smile to Grandpa’s face when he sees it. Given that he’s, in addition to a great guy, a decorated WWII vet, I think that’s pretty worthy.
[QUOTE=Arnold Winkelried]
Shame on you, sir!I think you mean okina - Hawai?i - a lovable typographical character. Glottal stops are one of the things that make this country great - the rich variety and diversity of cultures. Shame on you, sir!
[/QUOTE]
You’ll notice I didn’t spell don’t “dont.” 
BTW, I am drinking an iced coffee even as I post this.
<stands on table, claps hands frantically> acsenray for President!!1! 
[QUOTE=lekatt]
How do you feel about football fans screaming and yelling for their team.
[/QUOTE]
I feel that it has nothing to do with this thread. Your country is something you live in. You vote for elected officials. You pay taxes. You can get involved at many different levels. Your favorite team isn’t “yours” in any sense. You have no ownership, no say in the operating of the team, no vote in the management or players, and no way to become a part of the team. You’re picking a group of strangers and getting excited about them. There’s simply no parallel to flying national flags.
[QUOTE=Boyo Jim]
I never said I hate this country, and I’m offended by that interpretation.
[/quote]
“Hate” was an overly strong word. Sorry. But you said that there is absolutely nothing to be proud of. Do you believe that thousands of elected officials and millions of government employees support every one of President Bush’s decisions relating to the war and his attack on individual freedoms? Have you noticed any of the good things done by Bush, Congress, the Justice system, law enforcement, or anyone else in the country?
[QUOTE=Boyo Jim]
By and large I agree that your list of things to be proud of is a good one, except that America is rejecting many of the items on it as a matter of executive policy.
[/quote]
I disagree strongly. One individual and his followers are rejecting some of the items on the list. They don’t constitute a majority, and that individual has the approval of about 1 in 5 Americans right now. How does that mean that “America” is rejecting those items?
[QUOTE=Boyo Jim]
Would it be accurate to restate your position as follows? “No matter what America does in the world today or plans to do next year, flying the flag is appropriate because of the many good things we’ve done in the past.”
[/quote]
Be serious. The things on my list exist TODAY. Don’t get me wrong. I acknowledge that America has problems. But if we just fixed a few of them (like getting out of Iraq and fixing free trade/fair trade), the rest would seem pretty minor.
[QUOTE=Boyo Jim]
We could get into a discussion about how many things that are on your list are under assault by the current adminsitration, most especially the free press and trial by jury.
[/quote]
“The current administration” != “America”. And, BTW, I think we have the most open and free media I’ve ever seen. Look how freely they criticize the administration. If you want conservative TV/radio/newspaper/magazines, you can find it. If you want liberal, you can find that, too. Maybe we need some less biased sources sometimes, but overall it’s pretty darned good.