Cool Diogenes, maybe I’ll see you up there. I’ll buy you a beer.
This is very interesting. Could I have a cite?
Good grief, people.
Ephesians 2:8-9 : For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–not by works, so that no one can boast.
It’s just that simple.
But Jesus said if you love God and love your neighbor you will have eternal life. He didn’t say anything about “grace.” Was Jesus a liar?
And what is meant by “grace through faith?” Does grace require faith? Does faith guarantee grace?
What critera does God use for bestowing grace? Does it have anything to do what what kind of person you are?
Why all this talk of Jesus not stating that salvation is by faith? Why do so many of you think Jesus and Paul are at odds? Jesus Himself said"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." and again; “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.” and again, “Verily , verily I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” and again; " He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." and again " I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." And how do I feel about people that don’t believe what Jesus says? WHAT DOES THAT MATTER?! Let’s see how Jesus Himself feels about those that won’t accept His Word: “Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because their is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.”
ImNotMad2 I’ll answer your question in the first paragraph.
I think some have confused a few lines of scripture, as the entire gospel. There is no single line, or verse, that sums it all up as many try to believe. By relying on single verses, Faith is being defined in such a way that a verbal proclamation is all that is necessary. Referencing "words alone” is meant to imply that “good works” is no longer required. Merely a proclamation of Faith,(via words so professing) regardless of how deep the belief, is still insufficient.
James 2:19 Though believest that there is one God; though doest well, the devil also believeth and tremble.
“And tremble.” James said so much in so few words. Apparently the devil can profess faith in God. Is James teaching that we need to do better than that. That is my understanding.
I believe the gospel teaches that the price of Faith is sufficiently more than a few words or a raised hand manifesting a belief, even a sincere belief. The danger is, absent works, Faith may not but the ticket some feel it is.
Concepts like “Faith alone”, or “gift of God” are not intended to be the extent of the gospel. The argument follows that if this were the case, Bibles need be no longer than a page or two, and church services would be 10 minutes long, every leap year. Salvation could be found as the heart beat those last few heartbeats by muttering a few words indicating a true belief.
If someone truly believes that nothing more than professing Faith will be enough, I ask that you re-examine your position. Mere verbal manifestation of faith, even strong Faith is insufficient. As quoted in James 2:19 above, even the devil believeth…
The question is really not whether my position is right, or whether anothers position is right. The question is what is right.
Paul appears to has the exclusive honor of being the source of the by “Faith alone” position here. No one has disputed the teachings of James, so lets look at Paul.
Paul and James were opposites, James was the most conservative, and Paul, well, the most liberal of the group. In the teaching of James, the supremacy of the Law is stressed. Paul extols the supremacy of Faith. Are they in conflict? I think not.
Paul didn’t anymore eliminate “works” than James eliminated Faith. They are both requirements of salvation and not subject to change, at least not subject to change by a mortal man.
James never wavered in his teaching. Did Paul? Possibly, but a better answer would be that Paul “adjusted to the needs at the time”. I about to show that Paul too believed that good works were required, and he was not inconsistent in his teachings, even though they appear to differ.
To look beyond the patent meaning of what he wrote, an understand of what he faced with each group, and how he overcame the obstacles he faced. He penned his epistles during (approximate dates here) a 15 year period beginning about 50 AD. The Christian faith was young and responding not well accepted at this time. It wasn’t too healthy to be a Christian then either.
Paul originally (the early years of his writing) faced a membership that was mostly Jewish converts. As he brought them into the flock, He found that there was a reluctance on their part to abandon the Law of Moses (animal sacrifices) Later on, when the gentile membership had increased, Paul found problems with items from Greek philosophy interfering with the Christian doctrine. Paul found that each required a different approach.
Paul recognized the need to impress on these early Christian (the Jewish ) converts that the law of Moses was no longer in effect. They were no longer bound by it. Jesus was their atoning sacrifice, paying in full the debt they attempted to satisfy with their other sacrifices. Additional animal sacrifices were indicative of their not having developed the Faith they needed to progress as Christians.
Paul also recognized that they were but babes in this new faith. He knew that Babes had limitations due to their recently conversion. He also knew that he needed to help develop their Faith before they took the next steps within the church. Without Faith on their part, there was nothing to build on. Even though he had taught them, they had not understood, and were in need of being taught again.
Hebrews, Chapter 5.
12 For when the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principle of the oracles of God; and are become as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that uses milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness; for he is a babe.
The first principle of the oracle of God being Faith in God. Like milk is the first food for a babe, Faith is the first requirement for a Christian.
Paul’s plan was to teach, one step at a time, precept upon precept, until their diet would sustained the meat of Christianity. Paul knew that they would crawl before walking, and walk before running.
That is why he wrote to them “you’re saved by faith alone”. Meaning “Faith” (in Jesus Christ as your savior) and “alone” meaning “without the Law of Moses” was sufficient to start them on their path of salvation. He never said that this was the entire trip. Paul never meant those few words to be taken as a complete dissertation on salvation.
He says as much in the same epistle.
Hebrews 10:23,24
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering: (for he is faithful that promised;)
24 And let us "consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
There is that word - works - from the hand of Paul.
Finally, consider what Christ went through as he prepared for his crucifixion.
Hebrews, Chapter 5
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him:
Even Jesus, who had a perfect Faith, had “good works”.
Let’s examine the text. “For by grace are ye sufficiently started on the path of salvation through faith…” Oh, wait a second. That’s not it. Here it is: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Now, as self-explanatory as these verses are, let’s also examine the following verse, just to hammer it home: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus by good works…” Oh , wait. That can’t be right. Oh, yeah, here it is: " For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Now, let’s see. The verse says good works come after we’re created in Christ Jesus. Hmmmmm… reading from left to right, it seems simple enough from the verse that Jesus comes first, as He is the further left in the sentence than the “good works”. Why all the confusion. Just read from left to right!
Of course, Jesus, being Jewish, read right to left.
Why?
Is it a waste of time to discuss the content of “Das Kapital” if you’re not a Marxist?
Is it a waste of time to discuss the content of “The Quran” if you’re not a Muslim?
Is it a waste of time to discuss the content of “On the Origin of Species” if you don’t believe in evolution through natural selection?
Are you saying that there are varying degrees of perfect happiness in heaven? 
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According to John (6:47).
Again according to John (11:25).
Again according to John (5:24).
Again according to John (3:18).
Again according to John (8:24).
Why aren’t Jesus’ sayings regarding salvation through faith in all the gospels?
johnny m.
Matthew, Chapter 5
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
That word -works - it just keeps poppin’ up doesn’t it? This time it came from the mouth of the Messiah.
There must be some purpose, some meaning, some message, some reason for that word, works, to be so prevalent. What might that reason be then?
First: Paul said we are saved by “faith,” not by “faith alone.” The word “alone” was added by Martin Luther, who had his own agenda.
It just so happens that I DON’T see a contradiction between Paul and James on the value of good works, even if they SEEM to be at odds.
Nobody, least of all Paul, suggested that good works are useless or that they’re unrelated to our salvation. But I do think Paul wanted to discourage Christians from thinking of good works in quantitative terms, as if “X number of good deeds = Salvation” or “I have to commit X number of good deeds to balance out Y number of sins.”
Ask yourself this: if I perform a good work (let’s say I spend a few hours each week working at a homeless shelter), is God any better off? Have I done God a service? Have I done God some kind of favor? NO! God is no better off than He was before!
If I spend most of my life doing good works, then, does God OWE me anything? Am I ENTITLED to eternity in Heaven? Is Salvation a matter of accounting, in which St. Peter tallies up my good works and my sins, then figures out mathematically whether I go to Heaven? No. If God chooses to reward me for the good things I’ve done, that’s out of the goodness of his heart- not as a quid pro quo.
I think James was absolutely correct to tell people that they’re wasting their time and deluding themselves if they call themselves Christians but don’t DO anything to serve their fellow men. But Paul was also correct in telling people that there’s NOTHING they do can do to EARN their way into Heaven.
To re-use an analogy I’ve used before, when I was 5 or 6 years old, I remember my grandmother giving me money for drawings I’d give her, and I remember my Dad giving me a quarter for “helping” him shovel snow. Now… realistcally, was my art good enough to merit payment? Highly unlikely! And was my “help” really of any value to my Dad? Again, unlikely (it probably took him longer to shovel snow with me than it would have without me).
So, did I DESERVE payment? Probably not. But my Dad and my grandmother loved me, and appreciated that, because I loved them, I was TRYING to do some service for them. My actions DID result in a reward… but not because they really merited any kind of reward.
This has nothing to do with salvation.
The law is good, it was given by God. Jesus didn’t do away with the law. You ride in a plane, you don’t do away with the law of gravity.
Same as above.
There are different levels of hell, and there are different levels of heaven, as said above. This verse does talk about works, but again, in no way does it imply that they are in heaven because of the works.
Cause they are important. But in the same way my wife acts different because she’s married to me, she’s not married to me becaue she acts different. Love produces works, and you can tell a person’s faith by their works. We are saved unto good works, not by them.
First of all, I don’t buy this idea that we don’t “deserve” salvation? Why the hell not? I haven’t killed anybody. I haven’t raped any nuns. I’m a good person. Why am I “unworthy?” I don’t get that.
If we’re all “unworthy” then isn’t that God’s fault. He created us didn’t he? How can he blame us for being the way he made us?
YES!! You’re damn straight he does. He owes you at least the basic decency not to torture you forever in Hell.
Johnny, are you asserting that faith alone is sufficient for salvation? If I’m a really good person and I don’t believe in God do I still go to hell? What if I do believe in God but I don’t believe in Jesus…the fiery pit? How about all those Jews who died in the holocaust. Are they now being tortured by God for being Jews? Is Gandhi in Hell?
If God eternally tortures good people for no good reason, how can you call that God good/ How camn you even stomach the thought of such a God?
For those who are pushing the “Grace” train, I wish one of you would answer my questions about God’s criteria for bestowing grace? Is it purely arbitrary or does it have something to do with our behaviour?
I wish somebody would answer my qustion about the criteria
Cite?
Also, how does God decide who gets grace and who doesn’t?
Wow, Svt4Him,That verse is straight from the Beatitudes, do you really feel it has nothing to do with salvation?
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
It is widely held that the teachings of Jesus in the Beatitudes did replace and trandsend some aspects of the Law of Moses.
Can you reference an authority for this statement regarding these different levels.
Correct, there is no implication that anyone is in heaven because of their works. Nor is there a specific amount of “works” mandated as necessary to reach heaven. However, there are minimums required. (hint John 3:3-5 is one).
Women frequently act different after they are married. I will attest to that.
didn’t you just say
, Yes, you have it!!! That is what causes faith to grow! Your love of Christ and a desire to pursue a Christ like life.
To an extent you’re right again.
Well, you got two out of three anyway.
substitute “through” with “unto” and you have it.
It’s your salvation that you’re seeking, not mine. I will respect your right to pursue it in any manner, to any degree you find necessary.
I am interested in the source of multiple heavens and hells though, could you provide one?
Sure, the post on greatest and least in heaven is an example of it, as it clearly says greatest and least in heaven. This is not showing multiple heavens and hells, only different levels. Oh sorry, maybe that’s a bad way of saying it. There are different rewards.
And to say we are saved through good works, please show me a ref to that, and feel free to use Greek. And saying my wife’s married to me because she acts different is not the same as my wife’s married to me so she acts different. One implies her works are what lead to our marriage, the other says because of our marriage different works follow.
And there are some requirements, REPENT and BELIEVE are pretty clear. If unbelief is considered works, then I agree in part.
Here is an excellent sermon regarding children, by John McAurthur, as well as the works issue. Don’t know how long it will last, but here it is:
Oh, that link is exactly what we’re talking about. Grace and works. Great quote:
Salvation is by grace apart from works, damnation from works, apart from grace. But listen to the link above.
He rolls the holy D20.
Personally, I have no faith and no grace. I’m a big clumsy atheist.
And all this thread really proves is that you can find something in the bible to support any position.
Looks like I need to post the Hell Challenge here, too:
Let me tell you a little story. Hold on to your bladders, folks, because we’re about to take a TRIP STRAIGHT TO HELL!!!
(BTW, I feel obligated to remind everyone that I am not a sicko. If I seem particularly imaginative on the hell issue, let me remind you that I recently visited a torture museum hosted by Amnesty International. If you want to suspect anyone of being a sicko, I’d suggest that you look to the people who actually believe in this stuff, and believe it to be a good thing, and even, at times, seem to delight in the idea that people who disagree with them will go to hell.)
Let’s say you have two coworkers living in 1930’s Germany. One is a Christian, and the other is a Jew. The Christian tries to convert the Jew (let’s call her Miriam,) but he’s an ignorant dork and doesn’t do a very good job of it. Miriam (who is, by the way, very orthodox and observant, and loves God with all her heart,) listens with an open mind, but isn’t convinced. Miriam concludes that God made a covenant, and that He would never break it. Besides, Christianity just seems blasphemous to her, and the supposed proof that she was presented with just doesn’t hold up. In her mind, Christianity is tantamount to an insult to God, and she would never insult the God whom she loves so much by believing that He would break His word- at least, not without damned good reason. The Christian shrugs and tells himself the typical excuse: “Oh well. The good news is that my skill at proselytization doesn’t matter one whit as to whether someone goes to heaven or hell. She chooses to reject God, and that’s not my fault.”
Then the Nazis take over. The Christian manages to keep his head down and stay out of trouble. He dies of old age, and spends an eternity of bliss with God in heaven.
Miriam, who has spent all her life working for charity, has a chance to get out but stays behind to help others, and is sent to a concentration camp. And now, we apply the spoiler tag:
While in the concentration camp, she sees her baby, still twitching as it is skewered on a bayonet, tossed into a vat of boiling lye and hears it scream as its flesh is boiled from its bones. She herself is brutally gang raped until the ligaments supporting her uterus tear loose, causing her vagina to flop inside out and dangle bloodily between her legs. She dies soon of blood loss, much to her relief, because her great faith in God tells her that she can rely on God to keep His promises.
Then she finds that she’s in Hell. Whups! I guess God can change his mind after all.
The demons rip away Miriam’s eyelids, so that she cannot avert her gaze as she sees her baby thrown into a vat of lye. His cries cut her to the core of her soul as his skin is stripped from him, his flesh eaten but not consumed, burned for all eternity. Maybe Christians no longer believe in infant damnation- but the demons are masters of illusion, and are clever in their tortures.
With wheels shod in red-hot iron the demons smash Miriam’s limbs to pulp, reducing her to a bloody, squirming, shrieking thing like some boneless sea creature hauled up in a fisherman’s net. They weave her limbs into the fence of the City of Dis, where she must watch as over and over again ravens smash their beaks of broken glass into her lidless eyes, only to have them grow afresh so that they might be ripped in bloody gobbets from their sockets without end. And over and over, without pause, the demons use her in unspeakable ways until her violated flesh is no more than bloody tatters quivering with pain.
After countless ages of her torment, when her entire existence seems nothing more than pointless suffering extending without end into past and future, just as her last, faded memory of her earthly existence flickers before being extinguished forever and she is cast into an eternal darkness in which suffering is all she knows, all she has ever known, and all that will ever be, at that moment she knows true despair, for she knows that she has no hope.
And she wonders: why has God turned his back on me? Didn’t we have a covenant? Have I not kept His commandments? Haven’t I loved God with all my heart?
But we all know the answer. There’s no point in blaming God. She turned her back on him. All her fault, really, so no use whining.
And then that last memory of life is put out, and she truly becomes a creature, a native, of hell. For hell consumes her entire consciousness. She knows nothing of anything but foulness and degradation and pain, and never will.
Oh, BTW, you can find a recent photo of Miriam at the bottom of this page.
So, could we have some hallelujahs? Any fundamentalist here willing to go on the record to state that Miriam’s case is an example of perfect divine justice?
I don’t believe in atheists.
As for the Jewish lady, I’m a bit confused. She believes in the old testament where God gives the law, and tells what will happen when someone breaks the law? Or does she just believe in the blessings of the covenant without the curses? Has she kept His law? Has she never lied? Is she a good person? Maybe try this test, on her behalf right here.