How to get to Heaven according to the Bible: By faith alone?

[ technical hijack ]

The notions of different “heavens” and “hells” (or levels in them) dates to the Jewish religious literature of the 2d century B.C.E. to the 1st bentury C.E. In Hebrew, the word for heaven (or heavens) is plural and some speculative literature took that plurality and discussed the number of heavens, coming up with 3, 5, 7, and 10 in different texts. Secret Enoch placed Paradise (the destination of the righteous after death) in the third heaven.

Ah! say the literalists, but that is not Scriptural! Unfortunately for that position, Paul (following Enoch) explicitly places his ecstatic vision in “paradise” “the third heaven” in II Cor 12:1-4.

Hell is a bit more problematic. Originally the Jews described Sheol in ways quite similar to the Hades of the Greeks, as a place of no feeling, no activity, simply separated from life, a place to which all people went. Beginning with Isaiah and Jeremiah, however, there arose the concept of a place of fiery punishment for evildoers, made concrete by the allusion to the valley of Gehenna, a place where trash and refuse was burned and the site of the cult of Tophet that included human sacrifice. By the first century, C.E., Gehenna had become a spiritual “place” for the punishment of the unjust, especially in such works as The Assumption of Moses, the Syriac Apocalypse of Baruch, Esdras, and I Enoch. That imagery is the imagery that Jesus used on several occasions.

So, while there were no explicit levels of hell, there were two not quite perfectly matched images of it. Extending the concept of the levels of heaven to having levels in hell is probably the normal human desire to set things up symmetrically–culminating, of course, in Dante’s La Divina Commedia.

[ /technical hijack ]

You may now resume your quote-hurling food fight.

Hmmm, I’ve broken nine out of ten commandments (I think I did okay by Mom and Dad). Of course, the test is ridiculously biased, equating hated with murder and replacing “thou shalt not bear false witness” (which I take to mean lying under oath) with “you shall not lie”.

I’d have to wonder at the bloodless boring person who could possibly pass this with a perfect score. It’s certianly not the kind of person I’d want to spend eternity with, even if it was in Heaven, unless Heaven included gated communites and electrified fences so you could keep the people you don’t like off your cloud.

**

Could you explain what you mean here?

I think you’re being distracted by the trees, and missing the forest.

Miriam was a good- even saintly- person. She loved God with all her heart. She rejected Christianity because it was presented to her poorly, and because it seemed like blasphemy to her. In other words, her love for God led her to reject Christianity, through a simple, honest, and understandable error.

Was it perfect justice for her to go to hell?

Ben,

Once again, you’re far less original, far less challenging, and far less clever than you think you are.

 As a Catholic, I can't speak for fundamentalists and wouldn't presume to try. But I've yet to encoutner a single Catholic clergyman who'd say the hypothetical Christian in your sick story is Heaven-bound, nor one who'd say that Miriam is going to Hell. 

 If those people were real, I'd suggest that they'll eventually experience what Christ described in the parable of the sheep and the goats. The "Christian" will be condemned for what he did not do in service to Jesus (even though he fancied himself a Christian) , while Miriam will be rewarded for what she DID in service to Him (even though it never dawned on her that she was doing the will of Jesus).

Sorry to disappoint you, but you went to an awfull lot of trouble (and wrote an incredibly long spoiler) for nothing. The case you posted does NOT pose a challenge to anything most Christians believe.

But feel free to try again.

So?

When did I say I was trying to challenge what most Christians- or even Catholics- believe? As a matter of fact, I specifically directed the challenge to fundamentalists.

Once again, astorian, you have interpreted an argument against a specific belief as an argument against Christianity in general- and, once again, been typically snotty about it.

Explain this, please.

The question is do you believe that good (not perfect) people deserve eternal torture?

Did the Jews who died in the holocaust all go to hell, yes or no?

The discovery of the BIBLE CODE has increased my “faith” in the Bible. I don’t normally use the word faith but christians seem to prefer it.

I have regarded the Bible as an occult book for many years, I simply don’t agree with the standard Christian interpretations.

Achieving mastership, attaining nirvana, going to heaven. The terms all lack precision due to lack of knowledge on the part of the believers.

Since JC didn’t use English we must make sure our translations are correct.

Dal Timgar

You do know that the “Bible Code” is bogus, don’t you?

Really? I know tons of Christians, and the ones I’ve talke to on the subject (and its a lot of them) believe you have to accept Jesus as your Lord and savior or you are doomed to hell fire. Except in my case of course; the passage I posted earlier shows that I am one of the atheists who gets to go to heaven.

I would like to hear those who are strict Biblical literalists, and who take a really strict interpretation of “by faith alone,” specifically address James 2:24 (KJV: “Ye see then how by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”) I understand how the non-literalists handle it, of course.

Well, before I answer, did this saintly lady pass the Good Test? Did she ever lie? If so, what does that make her? Did she ever take anything that didn’t belong to her, no matter how small? If so, what does that make her? If she did neither, and loved God with all her heart, never took God’s name in vain, honored her parents, didn’t bear false witness, didn’t covet, nor commit adultery, then truly she was a great person, and she would be in heaven. Oh, I also forgot to mention, that if she did these when she was younger, time doesn’t erase it, nor do good works.

As for the credibility of the Bible, Josh McDowell changed how I think about it. Evidence that demands a verdict is a great book.

So again, did this lady pass the good test?

James 2
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by £my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is £dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Ok, first there needs to be some ground rules for Biblical interpretation, which I think is clear scripture should be taken for what it says. Second is unclear scripture should be looked at in context, and if context isn’t clear, the Bible as a whole.

That said, we are saved by grace through faith, as John McAurthur clearly says in his teachings. That faith produces works is a given, and works shows faith. If I believe God is going to judge the sins of all, yet never feel to share about salvation, then do I really believe it? If I feel (have faith) that God was serious when He said to love my neighbour as myself, yet don’t feed someone who’s hungry, do I really believe it? My works show my faith, and true faith is different than false faith. Let me try and explain:

A Christian farmer in western Kansas felt sure God spoke to him to give his $40,000 hail insurance to missioins. So, in faith he gave the money, trusting that God would protect his crop. Sure enough, the hail came and severly damaged all his neighbour’s crops, but not his.

In contrast, there is a well-known story about a brilliant tightrope artist named Blondin, who pushed a wheelbarrow across Niagara Falls. After he had walked to the other side, the crowd applaused at his amazing feat.

He asked a small boy in the crowd if he believed (had faith) that Blondin could walk back. The boy said, “Yes, Sir!” He then asked if the boy thought he could do it with someone in the wheelbarrow. The boy said he believed Blondin could do it, to which the famous tightrope walker said, “Good! Jump in then and I will take you!” The boy would not get in.

Here are two different types of faith. The farmer had faith that he heard God; he was so sure that he was prepared to step out. But the boy’s faith was (understandably) lacking; he wasn’t prepared to step out and step in. Many sincere people have a measure of faith in Jesus, but they have never trusted in Him. in that sense, their faith, because it doesn’t have works with it, is dead.

So basically, the Heaven Test that God gives us is so tough no one can pass it unless we buy the cheat sheet directly from him, right?

She;s just a good person not a perfect one. Let’s say she committed a few petty sins in her life. Does she have to go to hell?

Did the Jews who died in the holocaust go to hell?

As to your “test,” are you saying that anything short of a perfect life merits eternal torture? Does that sound reasonable to you? What kind of a vicious, egomaniacal. psycopathic God would set those kind of ground rules? That God is a demon and deserves nothing but contempt.

[/quote]
As for the credibility of the Bible, Josh McDowell changed how I think about it. Evidence that demands a verdict is a great book.
[/quote]

Evidence That Demands a Verdict is total crap. McDowell basically employs aruments from assertion, bad history, bad criticism and bad logic throughout. See a comprehensive critical analysis of the book right here.

Who decides what is clear? Who decides context? Who decides proper interpretation in context? How is the rest of the Bible even relevant?

Is that the same as being saved through faith? Isn’t faith a “work?”

Cite? I have known many people in my life who had faith but never did a damn thing for anybody.

I call bullshit on this one. I know lots and lots and lots of people (including me) who do good works without a shred of faith.

A Christian farmer in western Kansas felt sure God spoke to him to give his $40,000 hail insurance to missioins. So, in faith he gave the money, trusting that God would protect his crop. Sure enough, the hail came and severly damaged all his neighbour’s crops, but not his.

In contrast, there is a well-known story about a brilliant tightrope artist named Blondin, who pushed a wheelbarrow across Niagara Falls. After he had walked to the other side, the crowd applaused at his amazing feat.

He asked a small boy in the crowd if he believed (had faith) that Blondin could walk back. The boy said, “Yes, Sir!” He then asked if the boy thought he could do it with someone in the wheelbarrow. The boy said he believed Blondin could do it, to which the famous tightrope walker said, “Good! Jump in then and I will take you!” The boy would not get in.

Here are two different types of faith. The farmer had faith that he heard God; he was so sure that he was prepared to step out. But the boy’s faith was (understandably) lacking; he wasn’t prepared to step out and step in. Many sincere people have a measure of faith in Jesus, but they have never trusted in Him. in that sense, their faith, because it doesn’t have works with it, is dead. **
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I don’t care about faith one way or the other. I don’t doubt that it exists, it just doesn’t impress me. I’m more interested in what kind of person somebody is.

Answer this question for me plese. Do you believe that a decent (not perfect) person who does not have faith deserves eternal torture?

Okay, Svt4Him, fine. Miriam committed one sin in her entire life:

She got slightly angry at one of the Nazis who raped her. I guess the whole flopping-uterus thing got to her, and she just lost her cool.

So, does she deserve an eternity of torment?

Diogenes, is it my imagination, or is Svt4Him weaselling out of his Christian duty to stand and be counted as one of the faithful? You’d think he’d be proud to just come out and say, “it was just, because she was Jewish. No one is without sin, save God.”

I guess when you get right down to it, some people are ashamed to admit to what they believe.

Sometimes I wonder if they’ve ever really examined what they believe and what it says about their God. When it comes to the really hard questions they either run away or blow up, At least His4Ever will just come out and tell us who’s going to Hell. She picked the God of torture and she’s sticking with him.

It took me awhile to figure out if this site was just a joke or not.

No one in this world is perfect. I’m Christian but my religion does not believe in hell or eternal torture. I don’t understand how people could believe that. Honestly, I’d be hating with a passion if there was a god that made me only to worship him or be tortured for eternity. It would be better to simply not exist. Anyway, the reason for our suffering on earth is as a test, and also to show what the world is like with sin (as Lucifer decided to introduce it after going against God’s will). Our lives are the opportunity to make a choice between following Him or not. I don’t believe he’ll punish anyone for their ignorace, not unless they chose to remain that way. In the end, if you choose not to follow God, the result is death. And that does not include torture. The test is over. Why would there be a reason to suffer anymore?

I have to admit that this made much sense to me. But don’t think that God is blaming us. That is why He’s giving us a chance for salvation. Instead of thinking that the Bible says you’re “unworthy” of salvation, think of it in the sense that you didn’t earn the right to salvation just by being alive. In fact, it was Jesus Christ who earned that by dying on the cross. All you have to do is prove that Heaven is where you really want to go. I mean, why go to Heaven where you’ll be praising God if you rather not? The pleasures of Heaven come secondary to worshipping Him (which should be joy in itself). It would make more sense to end it all instead, and this is where I remind you that I don’t believe in torture in hell.

Don’t get me wrong. I go to church and find that the sermon can be pretty boring. I know there’s a lot of hypocrites and Christians with crazy theories. Like I said, I don’t think that God will punish people for their ignorance… not unless they chose it. Constantly seek the truth: your actions will reflect what you truly believe in. I’m sure he appreciates sincerity. But just don’t sit around and think there isn’t enough evidence to believe without looking. I believe in God, I’m Christian, I believe he’s real… but what if Buddha is the actual god? It’s my job to try and find out if I think it is a possibility. Or I’ll be choosing ignorance by just settling for what I’m comfortable with.

Whatever happens in the end, God judges me for that. It’s

Never mind Paul or Martin Luther. Let’s ask Jesus: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16, emphasis mine)

IF you believe THEN you will be saved. That is a promise from Jesus Himself. Faith alone is sufficient.

How can you “delude yourself” into believing in Jesus? You either belive or you don’t. If you don’t, no amount of good works can save you. If you do, you’re home free. According to Jesus, according to John, that is.

Again:

*And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? **

And he said unto him,** Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

He saith unto him, Which?

Jesus said, **Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. **

The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.* (Matthew 19:16 - 21, emphasis mine. Slightly different versions of the same story can be found in Mark 10:17 - 21 and Luke 18:18 - 22. )

Not one word about belief!

(I know you’ve already mentioned this incident in an earlier post, but you weren’t making any sense. Were you honestly suggesting that Jesus was stringing the man along and lying to him to prove some esoteric point? Please elaborate.)

Why don’t all the Gospels have Jesus saying that all you need is faith? It’s hardly something that would have “slipped the mind” of the Gospel writers…