The abrupt end of the post made me chuckle, picturing a divine lightning strike.
What did you conclude? I assumed it was serious.
What constitutes following God? Does Islam count? Does Judaism? Does it have to be Christianity?
I’m glad to see that you at least reject Hell.
I have to admit that this made much sense to me. But don’t think that God is blaming us. That is why He’s giving us a chance for salvation. Instead of thinking that the Bible says you’re “unworthy” of salvation, think of it in the sense that you didn’t earn the right to salvation just by being alive.**
[/quote]
Why not?
[/quote]
In fact, it was Jesus Christ who earned that by dying on the cross.
[/quote]
How did that work, exactly? What is the mechanism by which some guy getting nailed to a tree gives me the right to salvation? What did that change exactly. If God wanted people to be “saved” then why didn’t he just snap his fingers and save them. What’s the point of killing someone?
Exactly. I’d rather not. I’ll take death, thank you.
An eternity of worship sounds like hell to me.
There’s evidence? What is it?
Just FYI. Buddha is not a god. He was just a guy. There is no God in Buddhism.
Tsk, tsk Diogenes. What if you’re wrong? What if Buddha is the actual god?
Won’t the Buddhists be surprised?
I should have killed that guy when I had a chance, back when I met him on the road!
Uh, what is this trash? This is certainly not Orthodox doctrine. The whole “faith alone” thing is a Western aberration.
What is this trash? Ask the fundamentalist Christians.
We know it’s not a universal Christian doctrine, Dogface, we’re just messing with the ones who do believe it…namely, the fundies.
The Way to Cake, Chapter 1. (St.Jose Translation, 1648.875) And it quickly came to pass and spread through the land of a new master was teaching that eating cake was better the life provided by Fruits and Nuts.
1 And the Master Baker said; If thou listeneth to me, and hear ALL that I will say, and make record of this matter that I will reveal unto you that which maketh cake, which is sweet.
2. So all the Student Bakers, which he had selected to have apprenticeship, paid attention to his comments concerning cake, and caused to be written a record for cake;
3.1 Get some flower. For without flower you can never have cake.
3.2 Get some Wawa. (H20)
3.3 Get some Mikagp.(a butter like substance)
3.4 Get some Vobar. (like sugar)
3.5 Place all these things together for the good of the cake.
3.6 Bake it in the oven (that has been properly prepared before hand, leavin it closed for
thirty donfrtyzles)
3.7 And the Cynic said: If ye can tell this; If cake is so good, why have I never seen it? Ye answer my question and ye may have use my tub, which is not unlike my home. The Cynic believed all answers came from within and sought to teach this.But the masses understood him not (a few did though).
The way to Cake, Chapter 2.
1 The Master Baker taught many times saying “Now Verily, Verity I tell you this. I have given you the way to cake. If you heed my word, you shall taste of this cake, sweet be its taste, such that you shall long for it;”
2."If you do not these things which I have taught unto you. You shall never taste of this cake, nor muffin, nor sweet roll, nor biscuit shall you taste, but a endless, formless, tasteless gruel shall you have, and your fruits and nuts shall you keep.
3.The people, hearing of the great taste that this cake had, searched high and low, finding not they this cake, their hearts quickly hardened to having cake and they put aside this desire for cake.
4.They returned to eating bushes and shrubs and berries, and fruits and nuts again could be found. They soon forgot about the thought of cake.
5.Hearing that the flock had grown cold in the desire for cake, and returned to eating such earthly things, the Newest Student Baker, Pablo, who was in jail for j-walking, wrote to the people he loved so concerning their desire for cake;
The e-pistle of Pablo, Chapter 1.
1.Greetings my fellow Cake searchers. I Pablo your servant, currently doing time for j- walking, hear that you have grown tired in your search for cake, and have returned to eating “nuts and fruits”.
2.I say unto you, Flower is the way to cake. If you not have flower, you shall never taste cake. For flower is the essence of cake.
3.Did not the Master Baker teach; (The way to Cake 1:3:1) “Get some flower. For without flower you can never have cake.” Is this not true then.
4.Pablo caused to be delivered this letter with these greetings, which he called an
e-pistle, even though he had it delivered by a slow messenger.
The Way to Cake Chapter 3
1.When the e-pistle arrived, it was quickly circulated, creating a renewed search for cake.
2.Look what has been written concerning cake, by Pablo, the apprentice of the Master Baker himself;
3.The way to the great and tasty cake is a simple one! Pablo has promised!
4.The e-pistle was very popular, far beyond Pablo’s belief. It became sanctify and spread far and wide. Great was the furor it created. For it was heard throughout the land “By flower shall you find cake.” “Without flower, you shall never taste cake”
5.And those who sold flower said; Through us then, can you get flower, which is the way to cake. Join us, and we will give you this flower, for free, if you make a contribution.
6.And the conservative Student Baker, Jose saw that the masses were being misled.
The Teachings of Jose, Chapter 1.
1.Is not more required for cake? Did not the Master Baker teach that more was required?
2.Jose quotes The Way to Cake Chapter 1, verse 3.1 -3.6 Did any hear him?
The Way to Cake, Chapter 4
1.And the Cynic said; The featherless bi-peds, (with broad nails), seem confused, inconsistent, even contradictory., where can I find an honest man, who will answer the simple question I ask. They understood him not.
2.It came to pass that Pablo gained popularity, and wrote many e-pistles. His good news spread throughout the land.
3.Many found flower, and they did wondrous things with it. They sprinkled it everywhere, the did every imaginable thing they could with it, for they all decided that it was the manner in which flower was used that determined whether it produced cake. Some ground wheat to get it, some ground corn. Some picked flowers and placed them in their hair and danced and chanted. Everyday, new method for the selection and use of flower was found.
4.They divided amongst them selves, each according to the teachings regarding flour. They hardened their hearts to the methods of other groups. The practices became diverse, some even adding fruits and nuts to the flour.
5.So many were the groups, so different their teachings regarding turning flour into cake, that there became a confusion among the masses as to which was the true and proper belief concerning flour.
6.Jose, seeing mans error, still labored to bring his message, in it’s complete form, unchanged, to their ears. He found that his efforts were not as well received, because few listened, as they had found an easier way.
7.Pablo, enjoying his popularity, continued his e-pistle by mail and by posting. He became the Prince of Flour.
8.The Cynic still searches for an honest man, having lit a lamp to assist in his search. He still finds featherless bi-peds with broad nails do not understand what he seeks. Ah, the Dog though, the Dog smiles, for over two thousand years now he has smiled. He smiles because he found eternity in a different way.
9.Jesus, his table has cake, tons of cake. Cake enough for all. He wants to share it with all who would like it (I hear it is anglefood though, the other kind, isn’t served up there)
10.Maybe we should ask Jesus how it is that we can sit with him at his table. He would reveal the truth about cake to us if we only asked.
So, as I see it, it’s
Anglefood, or overcooked devilsfood?
Ice Cream or Slow Baked Ice Cream?
A beverage of Iced water or Boiling water?
Is that menu accurate? I don’t know.
I’ve never been to either table,
and I’ve never met anyone who has.
Don’t ask me, all I have is a personal opinion. (and a smile)
I think maybe some of you aren’t getting the point. In the Sermon on the Mount, right after talking about loving one’s enemies, Jesus says “Be perfect therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48) In other words, being good is not enough.
Great parable, Beryl. 
Super Gnat,
When jesus was specifically asked how to get eternal life, he said that if you love God and love your neighbor “you will live.”
Didn’t he mean what he said.
Also, Do you personally believe that a person who lives a good but but not perfect life deserves eternal torture? Is that just in your opinion?
Would this be dandelion cake? Rose cake? Chrysanthemum cake? Hibiscus cake? Queen Anne’s Lace cake?
I detect the beginnings of another round of translational errors and exegetical debates.
I love the same God as his4ever, and he is a God of love., not torture.
if works could help get one to heaven, then Jesus died for nothing.
(He didn’t)
With all due respect vanilla, I don’t think H4E sees the same God of love that you do.
What does get one to Heaven?
I won’t love a God who would send someone to heaven? Wow, there’s a new one. And it’s God who makes you sin?
This perfect lady will not go to hell if the only thing she did was not like the guard who raped her. But I’d be willing to bet that wasn’t the only thing she did. We don’t go to hell because we don’t believe in God even, we go to hell, because God has said if we sin, there are consequences. Now we believe it’s ok if a rapist goes to hell, or a murderer, we actually wish it on them sometimes, but what about a liar? What about a thief? What about someone who just looks at a woman and lusts after her in his heart? Our sense of justice tells us that punishment should fit the crime, and if God has said what the wages of sin are, how great is the crime in Him eyes? You break the law, you are a transgressor of the law, and being Jewish makes no difference. And if anyone could earn their salvation through works, then what Jesus did was unnecessary, and not a terribly big sacrifice. How much sin is too much, and where is it ok? Or if we sin on a rainy day is it better then if we sin on a sunny day? God has passed judgment on all sin, and His standards are better than ours. An example I use is if you have some M&M’s and put just a bit of crap with them, then wash them off, will you eat them? Or if you have a glass of pure water, and just add one piece of salt, is it still pure water? No and no. But the good news is that, although all are sinful, God has offered a way out. Reject it, and then you can pay the price for sin.
Now for the question about faith. True faith produces works, so if you know may people who had faith but no works, we are back to the same thing posted above.
Staale Nordlie - the story about the rich young ruler shows a characteristic of God that doesn’t change, and that is God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. When you picture the rich ruler, do you see him coming humbly or with pride? I believe that he came thinking there was nothing in his life that was wrong, and that is why he said “What must I do to be saved” as he has done enough to work himself into heaven. I believe that he didn’t see the need for him to do anything else, which is why Jesus was using the law. Did He string him along? I don’t believe so. I believe Jesus was showing the ruler that money was his god, and by doing that, showed him that his works weren’t enough. Biblical evangelism is always law to proud, grace to the humble. Nicodemus, a teacher of the law, was shown grace. The Jewish people coming to celebrate the giving of the law, were shown grace. The rich young ruler was given law. Pharisees were usually given the law. But not that there’s anything wrong with the law, but the law is what leads someone to a savior, as the law shows us where we stand in front of God, who is holy. If I gave you a cure for a disease that you didn’t think you had, would you take it? Of course not. The rich ruler didn’t think he had a disease, so Jesus showed him he did. That is the purpose of the law.
I won’t love a God who would send someone to heaven? Wow, there’s a new one. And it’s God who makes you sin?
This perfect lady will not go to hell if the only thing she did was not like the guard who raped her. But I’d be willing to bet that wasn’t the only thing she did. We don’t go to hell because we don’t believe in God even, we go to hell, because God has said if we sin, there are consequences. Now we believe it’s ok if a rapist goes to hell, or a murderer, we actually wish it on them sometimes, but what about a liar? What about a thief? What about someone who just looks at a woman and lusts after her in his heart? Our sense of justice tells us that punishment should fit the crime, and if God has said what the wages of sin are, how great is the crime in Him eyes? You break the law, you are a transgressor of the law, and being Jewish makes no difference. And if anyone could earn their salvation through works, then what Jesus did was unnecessary, and not a terribly big sacrifice. How much sin is too much, and where is it ok? Or if we sin on a rainy day is it better then if we sin on a sunny day? God has passed judgment on all sin, and His standards are better than ours. An example I use is if you have some M&M’s and put just a bit of crap with them, then wash them off, will you eat them? Or if you have a glass of pure water, and just add one piece of salt, is it still pure water? No and no. But the good news is that, although all are sinful, God has offered a way out. Reject it, and then you can pay the price for sin.
Now for the question about faith. True faith produces works, so if you know may people who had faith but no works, we are back to the same thing posted above.
Staale Nordlie - the story about the rich young ruler shows a characteristic of God that doesn’t change, and that is God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. When you picture the rich ruler, do you see him coming humbly or with pride? I believe that he came thinking there was nothing in his life that was wrong, and that is why he said “What must I do to be saved” as he has done enough to work himself into heaven. I believe that he didn’t see the need for him to do anything else, which is why Jesus was using the law. Did He string him along? I don’t believe so. I believe Jesus was showing the ruler that money was his god, and by doing that, showed him that his works weren’t enough. Biblical evangelism is always law to proud, grace to the humble. Nicodemus, a teacher of the law, was shown grace. The Jewish people coming to celebrate the giving of the law, were shown grace. The rich young ruler was given law. Pharisees were usually given the law. But not that there’s anything wrong with the law, but the law is what leads someone to a savior, as the law shows us where we stand in front of God, who is holy. If I gave you a cure for a disease that you didn’t think you had, would you take it? Of course not. The rich ruler didn’t think he had a disease, so Jesus showed him he did. That is the purpose of the law.
Man, I don’t know why I keep posting twice…It seems to take forever, so I just leave the page along, but when I go back, it posts twice. I think maybe my virus program hangs something up, but I’m sorry about that.
So, are you going to come out and just answer the question plainly?
What a repugnant theology. Please be clear. Is it your opinion that anyone who commits any sin deserves to be tortured forever? That sounds like justice to you? Does God have no sense of proportionate justice?
Could you directly answer my question about the Jews who died in the holocaust? Are they in Hell right now? Does that sound like a loving God to you?
BTW, there’s a giant, gaping hole in your “God said…” assertions…namely, the fact God hasn’t said anything that I’m aware of. God has never once spoken to me and I’ve never seen a shred of evidence that he’s talked to anyone else. Could you please give me a phone number or an email address so I can talk to God myself? Is there a videotape of God saying this stuff?
I agree that the crucifixion was unnecessary and had nothing to do with saving anyone, but that’s a problem for you not for me.
A few questions, though:
1.) If works don’t get you to heaven then what does? (Faith is a work so you can’t count that) How does God choose who to save and not to save?
2.) Why did Jesus say that all you had to do was love God and love your neighbor? Sounds like works to me. Was he lying?
3.) Shouldn’t God be at least as forgiving as I am? If would forgive imperfect people then wouldn’t God? Am I better than God? I must be.
4.) ( because you seem to keep avoiding it) Do you personally believe that eternal torture is a just punishment for petty sins?
This a “No True Scotsman” argument. It’s fallacious.
Didn’t you also assert earlier that works show faith. Do you still stand by that, or are you willing to admit that works can be shown without faith?
What “disease” do I have? I feel just fine. If I have a disease why doesn’t God tell me?
What about me?
When I was a teenager, I was a Christian. Fundamentalists stressed to me that I needed to have a personal relationship with Jesus. So I prayed, and I prayed, and ultimately I cried while I prayed. I prayed for Jesus to enter my heart. And yet, it was like talking to a pet rock. There simply was no one on the other end of the line. I wondered what was wrong. Was I going to hell? Had I done something wrong?
I decided that even if God wasn’t going to be personally present, He had nonetheless communicated to us through the Bible. I would, therefore, read the Bible with a completely open mind, willing to completely change my behavior if it turned out that my understanding of God’s will was flawed. Bear in mind that they didn’t have the SDMB back then, and living in a tiny Bible-belt town, I had zero access to books that were critical of the Bible. All I had to go on was the Bible, but just by reading the Bible alone it became painfully, obviously, brutally clear to me that the Bible didn’t support Christianity.
And yet, I still believed in Christianity. After all, I was told that I would be in Miriam’s position if I left. But it gradually felt more and more like the god of Christianity (specifically, fundamentalist Christianity, but I didn’t quite realize that distinction at the time) was a brutal and capricious demon that consigned people to unimaginable torment on the basis of bizarrely irrelevant criteria. It’s a god who will send people to hell simply for not worshipping in quite the way he wants them to- and who isn’t willing to give clear instructions.
And even then I believed, consigned to a hell-on-earth of believing that the universe was run by an insane and sadistic demon.
Ultimately, I left Christianity, but I was dragged away kicking and screaming at every step. Today, there’s no chance that I would become a Christian. Having looked at the evidence, it just seems to me that even liberal Christians simply aren’t being honest with themselves.
So, why did God let that happen? Because if God had responded to my prayers, if God had established a personal relationship with me, I’d probably still believe.