Yes! Job… and Hercules; Ben - If Hercules was brave, then so should you be.
Seriously, Ben, you had your mind raped by religion, your current position is entirely understandable.
I’m afraid that sounds a little dismissive. My position should be understandable by virtue of the fact that it’s backed by a sound argument.
Sorry, I certainly didn’t mean it that way; I actually find your logical position on the main issue to be quite sound, but I was referring mostly to thepost wherein you related your attempt to believe.
No problem. 
I don’t believe in atheists-Svt4Him
And still no explanation of this comment. **
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I find it almost zenlike humor.
There is a verse in the Bible (I am so not good at remembering WHERE exactly) that says Mercy triumphs over judgment.
So…I’m guessing from this verse and the ones above it, if one is merciful in their life, God will put mercy over judgment on them, and i think we ALL would prefer mercy to judgment.
Yep, the Beatitudes:
“Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.”
Me, too. It is quite elaborate. The “Mission: Impossible” music for Hellbound of the Week gives it away, though.
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I cannot fathom the M&M example at all. But I’m inspired to do a Google search on “crap with M&Ms.”
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There is no pure water.
No, actually its James 2:13.
Well, that too.
Those who believe in salvation through works usually don’t go into much detail in defense of their gospel. They make references to the importance of works, and they quote some passages of scripture out of context (http://members.aol.com/jasonte2/eternal.htm). But they can’t explain just which works must be done, how often they must be done, which sins must be avoided, etc. They misdefine saving grace as something that can be combined with works, despite the contradiction involved in such a combination (Romans 4:4, 4:16, 11:6, Ephesians 2:8-9), and they misdefine faith as something that includes works. Grace is no longer grace, and faith becomes faith and works. Any passage of scripture that contradicts salvation through works is redefined so that saving grace and faith include works, even though the passages either don’t mention works or exclude works. Passages such as John 3:16, John 6:40, and Romans 4:5-6, which either don’t mention works or exclude them, become passages teaching salvation through works. Supposedly, when faith is affirmed, works are also being affirmed, even if they aren’t mentioned, since faith without works is dead (James 2). Therefore, a passage such as John 3:16 may not mention works, but we’re to assume that works are included. And when a passage such as Romans 4:5-6 or Ephesians 2:8-9 excludes works, we’re to assume that only some works are being excluded, whereas other works are necessary for salvation.
Not only are such arguments absurd on their face, but the passage most often cited in support of those arguments, James 2, doesn’t teach what these people claim it does. Faith without works is dead in the sense that true faith results in works, not in the sense that faith and works have to be combined before a person is saved. If the latter interpretation was correct, James 2 would be in irreconcilable conflict with Mark 2:5, Luke 17:19, Acts 10:44-48, Romans 4:10-11, and other passages in which people are saved when they believe, not when they later do works as a result of their faith. As Paul explains in Romans 4:5-6, people can believe while ungodly and not working. That refutes the concept that faith can’t exist without works. Faith is followed by works, but there is a time when people believe before working as a result of that faith. People wouldn’t do works of faith unless they first had faith. Obviously, the people in passages such as Mark 2:5 and Acts 10:44-48 didn’t do any works in order to be saved. Though Abraham did works in faith, it was when he believed that he was saved, not when he later did works as a result of his faith (Romans 4:10-11). Abraham’s works proved his faith and justified him before men (James 2:18, 2:24), but not before God (Romans 4:2).
There’s also another problem with the works salvation interpretation of James 2. Not only does it put James in conflict with the rest of scripture, but it also puts James in conflict with himself. As he explains in James 2:8-12, we would have to live perfectly in order to be saved through works. Yet, we all stumble in many ways (James 3:2). We have to rely on a law of liberty rather than a law of works (James 2:12). For James to be teaching salvation through works in James 2:14-26 would be a contradiction of what he taught in 2:8-12 and 3:2.
I got this from a website on faith. Good stuff. I particularly like the last paragraph. It’s very true. Look, people. You can talk about cherry-picking “faith” verses just like I can say you cherry-pick “works” verses. But, when it comes down to it, you have to read the whole Bible. Do you really think God wants you to focus on a few choice verses to base your entire salvation theology on? Are you saying the whole of God’s revelation to men is less important than the verses you choose to rely on? I could choose to take a part of Psalm 53:1 out of context and “prove” the Bible contradicts itself. Well, doesn’t the verse say “There is no God.”? Of course it does! Does that mean it is in conflict with the rest of God’s Word? Of course not! Peter talks of Paul’s letters and makes a great point: 2 Peter 3:16, in part; “…His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.” It is very easy to have faulty theology when you look at a few verses instead of looking at them in context and knowing what the ENTIRE Bible has to say about the subject.
No, but you seem to.
Oh, please, Tom. Did you neglect to read anything in my post but what you wanted to? Is that how you read the Bible, too?
johnny, you obviously put a lot of effort into that last post, and I appreciate it. But I think you miss the point.
See, I don’t argue works over faith. In fact, I think your hypothetical people who “believe in salvation through works” don’t really exist.
But the simple fact remains that you have established a theology that you believe is correct, and you are dedicated to a Biblical interpretation that supports that theology. That’s understandable–we all do it, constantly–but IMO it’s something to be struggled against. It’s easy to say that one is viewing the whole Bible as a whole, that one is being objective . . . but its much, much harder to actually be objective.
I pointed out very early in this thread that the whole “faith vs works” issue is 1) a strawman, because there are few people who believe (and no churches that teach) that salvation is through works, and 2) that salvation is of the Grace of God. You have continued to attack the “works” perspective, emphasizing “faith” (to, from my perspective, the detriment of Grace), with hand-picked out-of-context quotations throughout the rest of this thread. On the one hand, you say that we need to read the whole bible; on the other hand, you do not address the message of the whole bible with its widely variant perspectives, choosing, instead, to cherry pick more individual verses with the intention of “proving” your point.
My observation stands.
In addition to what tom~ said, I’d just like to point out once again that faith is a work.
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
I think these verses should be added:
John 3:1-8
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, F7 he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Mark 16:16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Acts 2:37-41 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Romans 6:1-11 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed F21 from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Galatians 3:24-29 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.