[QUOTE=Crescend]
Let’s say that the Dread Pirate Roberts and his band of seagoing cutthroats have successfully captured a merchant vessel carrying spices from the East… Also in the captain’s cabin is a new and very expensive clock for navigation, which the ship’s owner purchased with loaned money; he was hoping to pay off the loan from the proceeds of this voyage.
[/quote]
Dread Pirate Roberts at large: 1719-22. H1, Harrison’s first prototype oceangoing clock: 1736.
[QUOTE=silenus]
If we take the USS Santee as typical, that would be 480 officers and enlisted.
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The size of a frigate varied greatly as the years progressed. When America built it’s “Frigate Navy”, the frigates were an order of magnitude bigger than what the European powers considered a frigate.
While I’m not 100% ofay on actual crew numbers of the “traditional” frigate given they had 20% or more less guns than the USS Santee type of frigate you could presume crew numbers would be correspondingly less also.
[QUOTE=Crescend]
Only off by 15 years? That’s a personal best!
[/QUOTE]
Well, no more than that actually. I can’t remember off the top of my head when the first “production” watches sufficiently accurate for navigation became available (at immense cost), but we are talking several decades after H1.
[QUOTE=Crescend]
So now the pirate crew has a ship, various sundry supplies, cargo, equipment, and various small valuables. What (and how) do they parcel out to each pirate? Do they separate the whole thing by volume or weight, and give each man his share in pounds? Do they sail the prize into Tortuga, sell everything on the open market, and distribute the shares in gold or similarly negotiable assets? Do they have some sort of table, prepared by the pirate ship’s purser (every good pirate crew has a pirate accountant!), which allows them to quickly estimate the worth of each item, and distribute ownership to the crew on the spot, and let each man sell or keep his share when they reach port?
After all, these are pirates. Scurvy sea dogs. Cut your throat as soon as look at you. There’s a lot of room for cheating in determining what counts as what for shares - and I’m certain that any pirate crew was keenly aware of this, and the apportioning of shares was watched very, very carefully by the entire crew.
[/QUOTE]
Privateers were not paid until the ship was sold, so cash would have been their lot. This also made it easier for the authorizing government to collect the fee/tax for supporting the operation.
My guess would be that generally pirates would have used the same system–it makes the arithmetic much easier and it is far easier to carry coin than assorted valuables.
Then would the captain alone bear the cost of outfitting/supplying the ship? If the crew got a percentage of the swag, did they also have to pay for their own food, help with the cost of new sails, etc? Or would the overhead be taken out forst, then then the ill-gotten gains divided?
[QUOTE=StGermain]
Then would the captain alone bear the cost of outfitting/supplying the ship? If the crew got a percentage of the swag, did they also have to pay for their own food, help with the cost of new sails, etc? Or would the overhead be taken out forst, then then the ill-gotten gains divided?
StG
[/QUOTE]
Privateer or pirate? Privateers were regular business ventures and the ships were owned by an individual or consortium. According to Wilbur’s book that I cited, above,
“Trial charges” refers to the action of presenting the papers of the captured ship to a special court of law that recognized the capture as having been carried out legally, thus “condemning” the ship as a “prize.” The original owner (or his agents) had the opportunity to appear in court to demonstrate why the capture had violated any of the rules of law and asking that the ship be returned to the “rightful” owners.
(Later on the same page, there is a reference to a seaman being given cotton, rum, sugar, and several spices in addition to his cash payment. I do not know the details of the procedure for selling some of the ship and contents for cash while distributing other parts of the cargo directly. Clearly, the agent who assessed the ship for the prize court had to establish prices for all the contents, although I do not know how much was based on the ship’s manifest and how much on the current open market at the city where the trial occurred.)
[QUOTE=GreedySmurf]
The size of a frigate varied greatly as the years progressed. When America built it’s “Frigate Navy”, the frigates were an order of magnitude bigger than what the European powers considered a frigate.
While I’m not 100% ofay on actual crew numbers of the “traditional” frigate given they had 20% or more less guns than the USS Santee type of frigate you could presume crew numbers would be correspondingly less also.
[/QUOTE]
“ofay” - au fait? :dubious:
Yes, the American super-frigates were a kind of halfway house between the British frigates (crew 200-odd, main armament 12-pounders) and ships of the line (crew 600 or more, main armament 32-pounders).
Although they are works of fiction, Patrick O’Brian’s seafaring books make mention of one amusing thing: When a captain took a prize, every man on the ship knew what his share would work out to be, down to the penny. Or pence. Or farthing. Whatever. Even the ones with little head for figures always had it figured out. I wonder if that was something he made up, or if it was, in fact, the usual case?
[QUOTE=gotpasswords]
Of course, that’s all after the monarch or government they’re working for takes their majority chunk.
Who came up with the idea that any of the crew are entitled to any significant share? It wasn’t uncommon for crews to be composed of slaves who were lucky enough to get fed, so there was no distribution of shares to be done.
OTOH, if you’re thinking of pirates, conditions for the crew were apt to be even worse, except they weren’t operating under a letter of marque, so they didn’t automatically owe most of what they took to anyone.
[/QUOTE]
Pardon me, but may I ask for a cite on these statements? This paper, an econ piece from the (admittedly undistinguished) University of West Virginia, claims that conditions for pirate crews were actually quite good - significantly better than the norm for military or commercial crews at the time. Ships had constitutions, captains and quartermasters were elected, and the quartermaster’s function was to ensure that every crew member received his share of the booty, as laid out in the shipboard constitution.
[QUOTE=Princhester]
Captain Roberts, one of the most successful, was deposed, stayed on, was abandoned in a small vessel, then became captain again.
[/QUOTE]
Are you sure it was the same Dread Pirate Roberts? Because I have a theory…
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever]
What about wenches? How does that booty get divided amongst the crew? Does it get divided, or does the captain hoard all the ass?
[/QUOTE]
From Articles for the Pirate Ship, Revenge:
I doubt that pirates were gentlemen, but, at least in some cases, it appears that they did not countenance rape. (It is much harder to collect ransom when the person from whom you seek money would rather spend that money to outfit a ship and hunt you down and keelhaul you.)
[QUOTE=Mr. Excellent]
Pardon me, but may I ask for a cite on these statements? This paper, an econ piece from the (admittedly undistinguished) University of West Virginia, claims that conditions for pirate crews were actually quite good - significantly better than the norm for military or commercial crews at the time. Ships had constitutions, captains and quartermasters were elected, and the quartermaster’s function was to ensure that every crew member received his share of the booty, as laid out in the shipboard constitution.
[/QUOTE]
The bit where you got hanged after a few years sucked, I expect. But at least while you were at large…
[QUOTE=tomndebb]
From Articles for the Pirate Ship, Revenge:I doubt that pirates were gentlemen, but, at least in some cases, it appears that they did not countenance rape. (It is much harder to collect ransom when the person from whom you seek money would rather spend that money to outfit a ship and hunt you down and keelhaul you.)
[/QUOTE]
Having just read “If Pirate I Must Be…” about Roberts, I can say that it too emphasises that rape was verboten, by and large.
[QUOTE=Inigo Montoya]
Are you sure it was the same Dread Pirate Roberts? Because I have a theory…
[/QUOTE]
According to the above book, yes. The records are actually quite good because his crew were all tried and there was extensive testimony, and it was all recorded verbatim.
[QUOTE=scotandrsn]
The basic unit of measure of booty, as defined by the International Standards Organization, is the ba-donk-a-donk.
[/QUOTE]
[pedant]There is no such organization.[/pedant]
[QUOTE=Crescend]
So now the pirate crew has a ship, various sundry supplies, cargo, equipment, and various small valuables. What (and how) do they parcel out to each pirate? Do they separate the whole thing by volume or weight, and give each man his share in pounds? Do they sail the prize into Tortuga, sell everything on the open market, and distribute the shares in gold or similarly negotiable assets? Do they have some sort of table, prepared by the pirate ship’s purser (every good pirate crew has a pirate accountant!), which allows them to quickly estimate the worth of each item, and distribute ownership to the crew on the spot, and let each man sell or keep his share when they reach port?
[/QUOTE]
There is a chapter (or more) in Tolkien’s The Hobbit which addresses this. The dwarfs and the hobbit have managed to acquire a goodly amount of booty and immediately become suspicious of each other regarding certain highly-prized items among the treasure. Further, several other people* have helped to get the dragon away from the treasure. The dispute about these items forms the main plot point of the end of the book, so I won’t spoil it here, but suffice to say it is a non-trivial bargaining process.
Presumably the captain would take the navigation equipment as part of his share, but it’s conceivable that he and the officers would conspire to count it as a common good (“It will help us all equally”) and then deduct it equally from everyone’s shares. Pirates who are bad at math might not notice if the captain and officers each only pay one share of its value, despite gaining their several shares. Commodities would probably be sold off unless a particular pirate had a reason he wanted them (e.g. the cook might ask for some portion of the spices to be counted as common shares and left for his use to the crew’s benefit).
[QUOTE=tomndebb]
From Articles for the Pirate Ship, Revenge:I doubt that pirates were gentlemen, but, at least in some cases, it appears that they did not countenance rape. (It is much harder to collect ransom when the person from whom you seek money would rather spend that money to outfit a ship and hunt you down and keelhaul you.)
[/QUOTE]
Also, your victims are much more likely to surrender without a fight if they don’t have to worry about being plundered after they get plundered.
