Chill bro, trying to build a wall here. Not Mount Everest.
Oh, that’s good! 
I’m certainly interested in hearing any proposals that would get the wall built and make Mexico pay a higher percentage of the cost than the scenario I mapped out.
It is curious that an argument has been made that any project constructed by inmates would inevitably be shoddy work. There are all sorts of work programs currently performed by inmates. To assume that illegal immigrants who would become property of the State are unlikely to provide satisfactory labor is just a bit suspect, I think. Otherwise, why bother having work programs at all if members of the prison population are so untrustworthy. Maybe not every inmate would produce worthwhile labor… but enough would.
But again, if there is a better way to both build the wall and increase Mexico’s financial investment in the project - please share! I think making the people of Mexico pay for it by essentially using their labor is a clever way to reach the goal.
Again, the goal itself (building the wall and making Mexico pay for it) you may find reprehensible… but if that is the goal… How best to achieve it?
I heard about how illegal immigrants are doing the jobs Americans don’t want to do. This is the first time I’ve seen somebody suggest we have illegal immigrants do a job that Mexicans don’t want to do.
Here’s another aspect I don’t think anyone’s addressed: security.
You obviously have to build a border wall as close to the border as possible. So what keeps your prisoners from just making a run for it? They can cross the border and they’re free.
You might argue “Who cares? We wanted them out of the country.” But the problem is that while they’ve escaped custody, there’s nothing that prevents them from re-crossing the border back into the United States again the next day.
This may be where the family factors in. Not everyone would be physically suited to work on the actual wall. Other projects could be created to occupy those too old, young, or unsuited for wall labor. Visitation rights in which the family would be permitted to get together periodically would be lost if members of the family simply ran away. Perhaps such an action would justify that those members of the family left behind get out into rougher conditions?
These are excellent concerns. I wonder if the threat of such actions being taken against those Mexican citizens who chose to cross the border might provide incentive for the Mexican government to simply write a check for the Wall construction, rather than this admittedly draconian solution to the problem. It would certainly be more humane paying those who want to build the wall, rather than pressing unwilling individuals into service.
So yes, excellent points all around.
[QUOTE=Alzarian]
I’m certainly interested in hearing any proposals that would get the wall built and make Mexico pay a higher percentage of the cost than the scenario I mapped out.
[/QUOTE]
The short answer to this is, basically, there isn’t…it was always a Trump fantasy. The long answer is, of course, we COULD make Mexico pay…if we were willing to put a literal gun to their heads and threaten war (and if they believed we were crazy and stupid enough to actually go to war with them over this issue). Or, we could threaten to cut off all trade with them. Oh, we’d get hurt…really, really badly, to quote the Joker. But they would be hurt more (assuming it stays just between them and us, and our ridiculous actions didn’t prompt other countries to rethink their trade relations with us in light of us being stupid and crazy and all).
The scenario you mapped out wouldn’t work from any perspective. It would be nice if you could acknowledge that, but it doesn’t look like you will. From a moral perspective it’s a fail. From an economic perspective it’s a fail as well…as has been pointed out, it’s going to end up costing you as much (I actually think more) than if you just built the stupid thing out of general funds. It will cost you more because it will cost the country the money as has been explained to you, but also because it will cost us a major hit to our soft power and our status…which, in the end we are losing in dribs and drabs because of president carrot top. But this…this would be a major hit and we’d lose a lot more. I get that many Trump supporters don’t seem to grasp this or think it’s important, but they are wrong.
There are all sorts of work programs, but most of them have the inmates basically doing yard work or cleaning up on the sides of the road system or stamping out license plates. Also, you might want to take a look at some of those inmate programs…not every inmate gets to do it because, you know, a large percentage of them aren’t suited to it or just can’t do it. The reason for that is because that’s low hanging fruit. Building a wall such as Trump proposed is highly skilled work, involving the use of heavy equipment. And it’s in really, really inhospitable terrain, so the logistics is going to suck, especially if you are going to have to guard the work force as well. These workers are not going to have the training, they aren’t going to have the skills, and they are going to do a piss poor job because they are also going to be highly unmotivated, to say the least. Don’t know how to say this any clearer…it’s a really bad idea and it wouldn’t work, even if we were willing to take the political hit to do something this dumb.
Jesus Fuck!
You make the Empire in Star Wars seem like nice guys!
Let’s agree that while building the wall is not impossible and getting Mexico to pay for it is also not impossible… the costs involved (both in terms of human and financial) would seem to suggest that it would not be easy to achieve.
I’m engaging in an intellectual activity, in which I am attempting to try and meet both of these goals - building a wall and getting Mexico to pay for it - as the President has yet to provide a clear blueprint for how this would happen. I presume that as this is an agenda item he proposed, that he would need to present a plan to Congress that they could then pass and he could sign.
Unlike healthcare reform, in which the Republicans in Congress showed on numerous occasions that they would be able to repeal the ACA, and the only reason it never became law was due to President Obama being able to veto it. I think President Trump is quite right in waving the signing pen about and ridiculing Congress for their inability to pass that which was so simple for the past 7 years.
The Wall project, however, doesn’t seem to have originated in the Congress, but on the campaign trail, so in that instance, it really is on Trump to explain how this is to be done.
As we have discovered in a very short time on this board, the solution doesn’t seem to be as easy to achieve as the rhetoric would suggest. I tried to find a solution, and it quickly devolved into a major human rights disaster. I’d be very curious to see a solution which allows a wall to be built, Mexico to pay for it, and that wouldn’t result in global condemnation, death and misery beyond measure. However, as the President never promised all that, only building a wall and getting Mexico to pay for it - I must presume that unless he knows something we don’t, it can only be accomplished with the aforementioned suffering and misery and great cost to Americans, either directly or indirectly.
This is hard…
As Mexico improves economically, fewer Mexicans try to enter the USA illegally. That is why there are more Mexican illegals returning to Mexico than entering the USA
Trump wants to kill NAFTA and have Mexico pay for his wall, which will hurt Mexico economically.
Alzarian, what do you think the result of this will be: more illegal Mexican immigration or less illegal Mexican immigration?
No, it is not hard at all. It is stupid, will not meet the goal of reducing illegal immigration, and is ethically obscene, but not hard.
You’re basically arguing we should hold family members hostages.
You will have your wall in approximately 3 months
And 96% of the mexican population will become US citizens.
And they will love Trump for it, and vote for him.
Mother why’d it have to be so high?
It is admittedly not the best way to address the concern raised by another poster as to how to keep inmates working on the wall from simply running across the border. Using their family as a motivator for good behavior would be one way to do it, but I’d also like to see a better way.
Building a wall along the border would not be impossible. But getting Mexico to pay for it is, for all practical purposes, impossible.
Mexico doesn’t want to pay for the wall. Mexico doesn’t want the wall at all. So we can’t threaten Mexico by telling them if they don’t pay for it, we won’t build it.
We don’t have any real leverage. We’re not going to threaten to attack Mexico if they don’t give us money. We can’t realistically threaten economic sanctions because the repercussions would be too high.
So if we want a wall, we’re going to have to pay for it ourselves. And it’s a dumb idea that we shouldn’t be wasting money on.
Don’t assume that. The President is an idiot.
That said, maybe he did he did know his plan was impossible. He may have just been lying to get elected. He told a lot of lies.
What about proportionality? You know, the punishment must fit the crime?
What am I saying? Forget proportionality! You’d literally be kidnapping foreign citizens and putting them into labor camps! You think Mexico is just going to stand by and do nothing about it? Forget Mexico! You think the World will?
You could always just kill them and pretend they’ll be released later. Much cheaper that way.
Also I’m not seeing the step in the plan where any actual money is transferred from the Mexican government to the US. How can you claim they are paying for it if it doesn’t reflect on their books?
Nice proposal, but I think you are overlooking an even more lucrative idea: instead of forced labor from captured border crossers, how about forced organ donation? Nothing that will kill them (we aren’t monsters) but only things that can be spared–a single kidney and/or lung from each person, or a bit of liver (it can regenerate.) Blood and bone marrow could be harvested periodically as long as you had them in custody.
and you can have the detention camps to conveniently concentrate them, and use electronic code tattoing of the numbers on them to track the origins.
And even the special symbols by the race and the ethnicity to avoid the confusion.
you can even have the marketing slogans
Work Makes Free!
Donation Makes Free!
Hell, the way this thread is going, let’s just kill them all and make the wall out of piles of their dead bodies. It’s cheap, it’s easy and it’ll discourage any more from trying to come in. Winning!
For bonus style points, we could put a few heads on spikes too.