How would the US Economy be affected if Tipping was abolished?

[DrDeth]

There’s no reason you’d have to raise the minimum wage at all. You would have to get rid of the exemption that allows certain eateries to pay less than MW, sure.

You wouldn’t have to raise the minimum wage for the same reason why other highly in demand workers aren;t effected by a minimum wage- they already get more than a MW, so changes in MW don’t effect them much. I figure I get paid something like $40/hour thus, a change in MW doesn’t effect my salary at all.

High end restaurants, in order to keep the best waitstaff would pay their staff more or less what the waitstaff gets now- including tips. They’d raise their food prices a bit, but the gross check- after tip- wouldn’t change much for the average consumer. Why should it? The prices go up 15%, but you don’t leave a 15% tip- the net result is just a small increase in the sales tax.

Waitstaff in the high end restaurants would net slightly less, as it’s a open secret that few report and pay taxes on all their tips. Having them pay their fair share of taxes doesn’t both me a bit.

Where the problem would lie is in the cheaper coffee-shop type eatery where the waitstaff likely net less than MW. The nessesary increase in lunch prices might drive a few of those out of business.

Buffet type eateries- where tipping is uncommon or *de minimus * anyway- wouldn’t change at all. Those are becoming more and more common, and there’d be a few more of them after the change.

Overall, there’d be just about as many net jobs, with just about as many businesses. The net pay would decrease a tiny bit due to more taxes, and the net bill would increase a tiny bit due to sales taxes. Neither would change things much. Service would decline. I’ve been to NZ, where there is no tipping, and the service was terrible. True, in America you tip after the Service, but a good waiter will give better service knowing that in the long run it leads to better tips.

Of course, it could be UnConstitutional to actually prohibit tipping- it could be argued it’s an excercise in Free Speech.

[Frosted_Glass]

@DrDeth

Waitstaff in the high end restaurants would net slightly less, as it’s a open secret that few report and pay taxes on all their tips.

:eek:
Well, I guess the secret is out now.

Out of curiosity, does anyone have any hypotheses on how the OP scenario would affect maid service in hotels?

[even_sven]

Right now, serving is one of the few service jobs that pays enough to allow one to live decently and pershaps support a family. Generations have been reaised by moms who are waitresses. Countless people have worked their way through school on tips. It’s hard work, but it’s somewhat easy to get in to and it pays well.

Without tipping, this would change. It would become just like every other service job- ill-paid and miserable. Right now the server owns the fruits of their labor. They get paid directly by the customer for the job they are doing- one of the few jobs available to, say, a young single mom, in which that happens. Kind of cool, huh? You do work and you get paid directly for the work you did.

If you put the reward for their labor in the hands of the company, at the very least you are introducing a middle man who will want a cut. Most likely you are giving the company the chance to make sure the waitstaff gets the bare minimum possible. We would turn viable jobs in to non-viable jobs, and I just don’t see that improving anyone’s life.

We tip for things that, in another time, our servants would do. We tip people who provide us deeply personal services that arn’t worth much by themselves, but which are invaluable to us because they allow us to get our other work on without worrying about shining our shoes or finding a parking space. We know it’s not rocket science, but it’s still very important and we compensate in regards to it’s importance to us, not according to the skill level involved. And we compensate directly because it is such personal service- when you are at a company dinner with an important client, you want that waiter working for you, not the restaurant. Tipping lends dignity and respect to what would otherwise be a grossly unequal and therefor deeply uncomfortable situation.

[Thudlow_Boink]

Wow, even sven, that was one of the most eloquent defenses of tipping I’ve ever seen.

[DrDeth]

@even sven

Without tipping, this would change. It would become just like every other service job- ill-paid and miserable. Right now the server owns the fruits of their labor. They get paid directly by the customer for the job they are doing- one of the few jobs available to, say, a young single mom, in which that happens. Kind of cool, huh? You do work and you get paid directly for the work you did.

If you put the reward for their labor in the hands of the company, at the very least you are introducing a middle man who will want a cut. Most likely you are giving the company the chance to make sure the waitstaff gets the bare minimum possible. We would turn viable jobs in to non-viable jobs, and I just don’t see that improving anyone’s life.
Tipping lends dignity and respect to what would otherwise be a grossly unequal and therefor deeply uncomfortable situation.

Well, then we should do the same for all Customer Service jobs- let’s not pay telephone customer service dudes much, as the customer can send them a tip. :rolleyes: The dudes at the bookstore- why pay him MW- rely on tips! :rolleyes:

In fact, at the high end, waitstaff is highly in demand and headhunted with zeal. If a restaurant is going to headhunt waitstaff from other restaurants, they aren’t going to do it with less money. There is absoluelt no reason at all to assume that waitstaff would be stiffed by their employers as the waitstaff would rebel- and the demand is so high, it’s a “workers” market.

There are two major industries that rely heavily on tipping- strippers and waitressing. Yep "dignity and respect ". :dubious: If we really wanted to ledn them "dignity and respect " we’d pay them the salary they deserve, rather than make them grovel for it.

[Voyager]

@DrDeth

Of course, it could be UnConstitutional to actually prohibit tipping- it could be argued it’s an excercise in Free Speech.

Restaurants typically add a service charge for large parties. Most people get that they don’t have to tip additionally in this case. Just adding the service charge should do the trick - no laws required.

[even_sven]

@DrDeth

In fact, at the high end, waitstaff is highly in demand and headhunted with zeal. If a restaurant is going to headhunt waitstaff from other restaurants, they aren’t going to do it with less money. There is absoluelt no reason at all to assume that waitstaff would be stiffed by their employers as the waitstaff would rebel- and the demand is so high, it’s a “workers” market.

Right now a restaurant does not pay more for better waiters. The dynamic you explain would, of course, change with a different system.

And we can assume that wages would go down, based on the precedence set by other service jobs. “Shopgirl” used to be a reasonable job. Now it’s not. Things have changed for the worse.

[Throatwarbler_Mangrove]

Without tipping, this would change. It would become just like every other service job- ill-paid and miserable. Right now the server owns the fruits of their labor. They get paid directly by the customer for the job they are doing- one of the few jobs available to, say, a young single mom, in which that happens. Kind of cool, huh? You do work and you get paid directly for the work you did.

Kind of like Marxism. Labour is the only factor of production that is of value? If restaurant owners were such fat cats why not open your own restaurant instead of slaving away as a waiter? Oh, right…

If you put the reward for their labor in the hands of the company, at the very least you are introducing a middle man who will want a cut. Most likely you are giving the company the chance to make sure the waitstaff gets the bare minimum possible. We would turn viable jobs in to non-viable jobs, and I just don’t see that improving anyone’s life.

How about my life as a customer? The life of the restaurantier who gets to take a little more home? Why does the waitstaff deserve any more than the bare minimum when the owner of the restaurant doesn’t? It’s NICE, to be sure, but I don’t see any ethical or philosophical justification for it.

[Voyager]

@kawaiitentaclebeast

How about my life as a customer?

My life as a customer is significantly improved by wait staff who aren’t hired from the bottom of the barrel, and who make a living wage. You’re free to go to a fast food joint to enjoy the benefits of minimum wage service.

The life of the restaurantier who gets to take a little more home? Why does the waitstaff deserve any more than the bare minimum when the owner of the restaurant doesn’t? It’s NICE, to be sure, but I don’t see any ethical or philosophical justification for it.

The restaurant owner gets to set the menu prices and buys the food. He gets his money marking up the food and drink, and, if he produces a menu people want to order from at the price, he deserves it. If the own way he can make any money is by snatching food out of the mouths of the waitstaff, he doesn’t deserve to be in business.

[GargoyleWB]

@Voyager

My life as a customer is significantly improved by wait staff who aren’t hired from the bottom of the barrel, and who make a living wage. You’re free to go to a fast food joint to enjoy the benefits of minimum wage service.

My experience, both in the workforce in tipping and non-tipping service jobs, and in countries overseas, differs. I haven’t seen any significant difference in service or quality in non-tipping establishments for non-luxury places. The average corner restaurant in England served me just as pleasantly as one in Los Angeles.

I treated customers the same when I made and served sandwiches at a sandwich bar for no tips, and when I delivered groceries with tips. In both cases, if someone was a lazy ass, they got fired, regardless of how many tips they got.

My response to poor service is to not return as a customer and find an alternate business, not to just repeatedly endure bas service while grousing about economics under my breath.

[Voyager]

@GargoyleWB

My experience, both in the workforce in tipping and non-tipping service jobs, and in countries overseas, differs. I haven’t seen any significant difference in service or quality in non-tipping establishments for non-luxury places. The average corner restaurant in England served me just as pleasantly as one in Los Angeles.

I have no doubt as to that - I was addressing a seeming complaint about the unfairness of paying servers anything more than the absolute minimum required, because that would take money away from the poor downtrodden restaurant owner. I’d assume that servers who get paid a decent wage would treat customers just as well as those who get tipped, having something to lose.

Heck, the checkers at my local Safeway, who get benefits and a decent wage, at least until WalMart takes over, do a great job and are a major reason we shop there. There are certainly people who provide good service while being exploited, but that’s not the way to bet.

[Steve_MB]

I doubt it would affect much of anything, really. The “going rate” for jobs that traditionally get tipped is the nominal pay rate plus the average rate of tips. If tipping vanished, employers would have to make up the difference in pay to attract the same number and caliber of employee, and raise their prices to make up the extra cost.

[Sam_Stone]

Why does tipping make the life of the customer harder? I *enjoy tipping. I like rewarding people who are nice to me. It makes me feel good. And if someone is a complete dickhead to me, I like the ability to withhold my tip.

I see it as win-win all around. When tipping is in the mix, being on the waitstaff is much more bearable. In fact, it’s amost like being a small businessperson - a collaboration between you and your employer, rather than just being another minimum wage grunt. From the customer’s perspective, they get better service, and get some control over how much they pay for a meal based on the intangibles.

I suspect that most people against tipping fall into two categories - bad service people who are pissed that the good ones make a lot more than they do, and customers who resent having to pay out any more money at all other than what’s on the bill.

The thing is, you’ll pay it anyway. Ever been to a resort that’s all-inclusive? The ones where you don’t have to tip? Guess what? The price often includes a 15% gratuity fee that is paid out by the management to the staff.

If you don’t want to tip, go to serve-yourself buffets or fast-food joints. Or eat at home. Otherwise, just accept that food always costs about 10-15% more than the menu price, but the cool part is that you get to choose how to distribute that portion of the bill. What’s not to like?

[pizzabrat]

@Sam Stone

If you don’t want to tip, go to serve-yourself buffets or fast-food joints. Or eat at home. Otherwise, just accept that food always costs about 10-15% more than the menu price, but the cool part is that you get to choose how to distribute that portion of the bill. What’s not to like?

Much to say, but I spent myself on this topic a couple of years ago.

[Throatwarbler_Mangrove]

Look, I’ve nothing against tipping to reward a job well done or nice tits or whatever, but I find it onerous to be told that I have a moral obligation to tip the waitress because without my philathropy, she will be left destitute. Please, it isn’t MY responsibility to make up the shortfall between between your spending and whatever wage your employer agreed to pay you. I am obligated to pay you whatever price is on the menu and that’s it. If you don’t like it, whine to your employer, or find something else to do besides waiting tables or stripping.

[even_sven]

@kawaiitentaclebeast

Look, I’ve nothing against tipping to reward a job well done or nice tits or whatever, but I find it onerous to be told that I have a moral obligation to tip the waitress because without my philathropy, she will be left destitute. Please, it isn’t MY responsibility to make up the shortfall between between your spending and whatever wage your employer agreed to pay you. I am obligated to pay you whatever price is on the menu and that’s it. If you don’t like it, whine to your employer, or find something else to do besides waiting tables or stripping.

Well, you don’t have a moral obligation to keep a business open, but you have an obligation to pay for the stuff you buy. You don’t have an obligation to keep a waitress from starving, but you have an obligation to pay her for the services she renders- which means if she got your plate of food to you and didn’t do anything outrageous you give her something. In some social situations you pay at the beginning. In some you pay at the end. In some you pay what you feel like (like the collection plate at church, for example). In others, you pay a previously stated amount. Sometimes you pay the same as everyone else. Sometimes you pay your own special prices (like airline tickets or cars). Different modes of payment for different situations. Tipping is one of those. Adults are supposed to know what to do in different situations and be able to handle that.

That is how it works. We all know the rules. Just because they don’t spell it out doesn’t mean it’s not true. By going to a restaurant, you are agreeing to play by those rules. To not do so is to break the social contract, which may be legal but is an immoral and assholic thing to do.

[Throatwarbler_Mangrove]

which may be legal but is an immoral and assholic thing to do.

If it’s such a horrible thing to do, then why is it legal? Why can’t the employer just pay you a decent wage and why is it my fault that he can’t?

[levdrakon]

@pizzabrat

Mmm-hmm. And what explains our notably attractive flight-attendant base? Managers would still benefit from attractive servers; they can still hire based on looks and demand that their employees dress well.

No. There are few flight attendant jobs, and lots of people vie for them.

If waiters & waitresses suddenly become truly minimum wage jobs, you’re going to get the same apathetic, greasy, unkempt pimply-faced youths you get at McFastFood. They aren’t necessarily going to spit on your food or anything, but you’re not going to get flight attendant quality.

There’s no incentive to look nice & act nice in the American everyone-eats-out-all-the-time-and-there-are-restaurants-every-where culture, if you’re only making minimum wage.

People don’t vie for jobs at McFastFood, and they won’t vie for jobs at your local Fabuloso Restaurante, unless there’s an incentive to do so. Why should I put up with your crap and make you feel all nice when I might as well work at the corner fast food where all I’m required to do is say “want fries with that? Next!”

[even_sven]

@kawaiitentaclebeast

If it’s such a horrible thing to do, then why is it legal? Why can’t the employer just pay you a decent wage and why is it my fault that he can’t?

Why isn’t it illegal not to address everyone as “Your dickness”? Why isn’t it illegal to invite a homeless guy over for dinner and then serve him nothing but a jar of sweet pickles? Why isn’t it illegal to put amusment park tokens in the collection plate? Because we expect people to act like reasonable adults, which most of the public manages most of the time.

If you think managment is cheap now, just wait until you get the portion sizes dictated by managment, not the extra salad dressing (One spoonful only! reads the sign above the dressing bar) and heaping bowls of coffee creamer (“No coffee creamer unless they ask! Max two per cup of coffee!” demands management) and covert free refills (Hot chocolate refills MUST BE BILLED!") your waitress sneaks you in an attempt to make your dining experience better. Restaurants are not a high margin business, and the tension between waitstaff and managment works in the diner’s favor. Once your in the door and have ordered and are legally responsible for the bill, the restraunt itself could care less how your experience is. Guess who does care?

It’s not “your fault” that managment doesn’t pay them the wages they would make with tips anymore than its “your fault” that the government can’t make it’s own damn money and not charge you taxes or that the grocery store can’t make food fall out of the sky for you. It’s not about “fault”, it’s about the basic rule of commerce- you get something, you pay the person that provides it. In this particular case, you distribute that money a little differently than you do in most transactions. But it’s still the same idea.

[Throatwarbler_Mangrove]

Why isn’t it illegal not to address everyone as “Your dickness”? Why isn’t it illegal to invite a homeless guy over for dinner and then serve him nothing but a jar of sweet pickles? Why isn’t it illegal to put amusment park tokens in the collection plate? Because we expect people to act like reasonable adults, which most of the public manages most of the time.

Oh come on, those examples are silly. What exactly is so “unreasonable” about paying exactly the price stated in the menu? Why is it unreasonable for me to expect the management to pay you what you are worth? Or for them just just put “15% service charge” or to increase prices accordingly so that they can pay you the amount you deserve?

If you think managment is cheap now, just wait until you get the portion sizes dictated by managment, not the extra salad dressing (One spoonful only! reads the sign above the dressing bar) and heaping bowls of coffee creamer (“No coffee creamer unless they ask! Max two per cup of coffee!” demands management) and covert free refills (Hot chocolate refills MUST BE BILLED!") your waitress sneaks you in an attempt to make your dining experience better.

So this is it? I’m just bribing my waitress to steal from the owners? While I may benefit from this I don’t see how this is at all ethical. If the manager of your restaurant feels it neccesary to limit my intake of salad dressing or coffee creamer, a patently absurd business practice in terms of cost/benefits, then I am free to take my business somewhere where the owners are not cheapskates and the waitresses do not have to resort to subterfuge.

It’s not “your fault” that managment doesn’t pay them the wages they would make with tips anymore than its “your fault” that the government can’t make it’s own damn money and not charge you taxes or that the grocery store can’t make food fall out of the sky for you. It’s not about “fault”, it’s about the basic rule of commerce- you get something, you pay the person that provides it. In this particular case, you distribute that money a little differently than you do in most transactions. But it’s still the same idea.

The basic rule of commerce, as I understand, is that I ask how much something is, you tell me, I pay you and I take my goods. That’s how it works everywhere else except restaurants and stripclubs and I’m still completely mystified as to why(well, restaurants anyway, stripclubs I sort of get…) waiters feel that it’s the customer who is the asshole when they are being stiffed by the managers.

I honestly would eat out at restaurants more often if it wasn’t for this silly, annoying routine. As a result, I save a bundle of money and get a lot of practice at cooking. It’s the restaurant industry’s loss.