Human-Animal Moral Code

The BBQ Pit
21

[QUOTE=Anaamika]
But still, as **Leviosaurus **says (and then insults my beloved birds! bad Levi!) we must all respect each other’s feelings. To a extent.
[/QUOTE]
Consider me properly chastised - Just don’t whack me on the nose with a rolled up newspaper, please? ::deep, soulful expression of sorrow:: In my defense, he was sending the cat off to its destiny; it would have made a hell of a going away present. I’m sure the cat would agree.

[QUOTE=Anaamika]
I do have a major problem with the way dogs and cats are practically revered in the States, to the point of insulting other countries who don’t do so, and then look what we do to the non-cute animals.
[/QUOTE]
I know exactly what we do with the non-cute animals. We make them into celebrities.

22

I got nothing, except that the Dutch Animal Rights Party (Yes, we’re in Parliament!) bases its viewpoints regarding the ethics of human-animal interaction on, among others, the writings of the Australian ethic Peter Singer.

23

No love? No affection?

Let’s call my guys Big Cat and Little Cat.

Big Cat I found in a pound. They’d fixed his hip after he got hit by a car; you’d never know it now. But back then he was half his current size, big-eyed and alone in a little square cage. They let me take him out to hold him and he clung to me and didn’t want to let me go. Well. I was probably not much warmer than the cage, it being Texas summer, but many cats enjoy being cuddled.

He used to wail and wail and wail when I left the house, to the point that I could hear him in my third-floor apartment when I stood at the door of my car. He would run up to me and rub my ankles. He would follow me around the house. I am not the hand that feeds him now or the only person who pets him, but it’s still my bed he sleeps in all day long. Maybe it’s just for warmth – though he does this in Texas midsummer too – but he begs and pleads to sit in my lap and ambles there to curl up and sleep when I watch television. 'Course, he’s territorial. He’s a cat. He’s also a destructive little bastard sometimes – he used to knock down every glass that had water in it, destroying two keyboards until I finally poured water on him every time he did that trick. Three iterations equaled no more of that. Smart boy.

Little Cat we got when my parents’ neighbor’s cat had kittens. He was a little ball of fluff when I brought him home and I was rather worried Big Cat would terrorize him. That’s why I took the most fearless of the bunch. He stood right there and sniffed back when Big Cat ambled over to check him out. Before long, Big Cat was fathering Little Cat. He taught the little guy how to hunt and how to fight. And how to destroy stuff, for that matter; that little bastard would do anything for attention. Both of them follow me into the bathroom and meander around my legs. Little One will rise up on his hind legs to meet my hand when I reach out to pet him, purring like mad and turning around and around to headbutt my hand again. Yeah, he’s using his scent glands; still, they both let me snuggle them and rub their bellies, and there’s no biological imperative for that. Little Cat follows me around the house, trotting at my ankle and occasionally running ahead of me to skid on the floor.

They can be bastards. When their litter box was full, they would use my laundry pile. It sure as hell got my attention, and as much as I shouted and hurled stuff at them, I also cleaned out their litter box.

I have had cats and I have had dogs and I love dogs – sweet and open and loving unconditionally. loyal and merry. Cats are different, though. I like an independent pet, one that can take care of its own necessities for a weekend without needing to be boarded. I like the fact that it’s not just a biological imperative – that the cat chooses to curl up next to me, given all its other options.

I completely understand why dog people are dog people. But calling cat-affection an anthropomorphization while dog-love is true? You’ve just met some asshole cats, I guess. :smiley:

24

[QUOTE=Leviosaurus]
Ah yes, here is the link - I see it has been trotted out several more times since I last looked at the Pit Bull thread: http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

So, approximately 300 people died of dog bites over a 19 year periodin the US, meaning your odds of dying by dog bite are roughly 1,000,000 to one. According to the National Weather Service, your odds of being hit by lightning are roughly 280,000 to one. (cite: http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/resources/Ltg%20Safety-Facts.pdf) So, abusing the math, you’re almost four times more likely to be hit by lightning that get killed by a Pit Bull.

Do you have any idea how the Press works? They print the news that sells newspapers. If you buy the stories on Pit Bulls, then that’s what they print, regardless of how representative that is of reality. Critical thinking should always be applied when reading the newspaper.
[/QUOTE]

If you’re going to quote statistics from that article, you might also want to touch on the non-fatal dog-bites as well:

[QUOTE=CDC]
By 1994, an estimated 4.7 million people (1.8% of the US population) sustained a dog bite; of these, approximately 800,000 (0.3% of the US population) sought medical care for the bite (332,000 in emergency departments), and 6,000 were hospitalized.
[/QUOTE]

So, with all due respect, I’ll take my chances against the lightning. Particularly since I’m no longer a child (although my wife will disagree) or a senior citizen:

[QUOTE=CDC]
Of 27 human DBRF [dog bite-related fatalities, in 1997 & 1998], 19 (70%) were children (1 was ≤ 30 days old, 3 were between 7 and 11 months old, 9 were between 1 and 4 years old, and 6 were between 5 and 11 years old), and 8 were adults (ages 17, 44, 64, 70, 73, 75, 75, and 87).
[/QUOTE]

Also, the article isn’t necessarily endorsing breed-specific bans:

[QUOTE=CDC]
An alternative to breed-specific legislation is to regulate individual dogs and owners on the basis of their behavior. Although, it is not systematically reported, our reading of the fatal bite reports indicates that problem behaviors (of dogs and owners) have preceded attacks in a great many cases and should be sufficient evidence for preemptive action.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the link - I’ve been trying to avoid the Pit Bull thread.

25

I’ve had cats and I’ve had dogs. It’s true that dogs are more into people.

My first dog was a rescue dog who became inconvenient to her owners (and yes, they had good reasons) and they were going to have her put down. I don’t think she ever got over missing them, although I paid a lot more attention to her for the last few years of her life than they did for the last couple of years that they had her. I think she was always waiting for one of her “true” owners to show up at the door–and since they were friends of mine, this happened from time to time and she was delighted.

I’ve had cats who considered me a source of food and warmth only, but I’ve also had cats who were as devoted to me as a dog. One that would go on walks with me (and in fact once followed me to school). This is not unheard of. One time when I was camping and fishing with my dog, I ran into a guy who was doing the same accompanied by his cat.

I had a dog for many years, and during those years I had mice. (There was a mouse living in the dog food bin for awhile. I have not had a mouse problem since three days after getting the first cat. Apparently the word went out. So there is a niche for cats, even cats that don’t care who they live with as long as someone feeds them (although for the record this cat is affectionate–but it’s possible she doesn’t care who pets her, either, and prefers my company because I give better petting).

I also have a cat who came into my back yard to play with my son, who was 8 at the time. My son is this cat’s favorite (and cats are not really notable for being attracted to small children). This cat usually comes when called but he always comes to my son.

I once had a cat who pissed on one of my boyfriends. This was the same one who followed me to school–I had her for 18 years starting when I was 10. The guy in question thought I should get rid of her because she was obviously senile. I got rid of the guy instead. Who knows, she probably saved me months of anguish with this guy. (Him, too.) I do think this cat missed me when I was gone, although she showed it in a strange way, by destroying something of mine when I got back.

All of the cats I’ve owned have been inclined to come and greet me and other family members when we get home. They have not done the Happy Dance of Extreme Exultation that our dogs have routinely done but they come trotting in with their tails in the air and seem glad to see us.

26

[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman]
Arguments of undesirable ownership do not sway me.
[/QUOTE]

It does sway me.
As the pack leader, I influence my dog a great deal. I’m not a morning person, neither is my dog (who slept to 9.30 this morning) and yet I hear other dog owners complaining that they have to get up aqt 5.30 and walk the dog. Well sure, if you let the dog controll you, instead of vice versa. As puppies, dogs are extremely impressionable. When I got Buster, it was a period with a lot of rain. Running out with him 10-20 times a day to teach him to pee and poo outdoors didn’t leave me time to put on proper shoes, and since it was September, I just walked out in my Birkenstocks, avoiding the puddles.
To this day Buster avoids the puddles in the back yard, walking around or jumping over them, while he enjoys running through puddles everywhere else. He’s 3,5 now.

During the 80’s, rotties were the dogs of choice for guys wanting a dog looking tough and mean. Most (not all) of the rotties I meet now are big, slobbering, black and orange teddy bears. My theory is that the guys who want a mean dog have moved on to “pit bulls”. Rotties can be very sharp, but since buyers now don’t buy them to look tough, as puppies, the rotties don’t pick up the cues for tough behavior. I believe that if you’re afraid and watchful when you walk your dog, the dog will become watchful and afraid.

I have a boxer, the silliest breed on the planet. It’s also the dog with most muscle mass compared to total weight, of any breed. It’s been bred to do the same work as rotties and are excellent watch dogs, very willling to work and easy to train for protection duty. Their hunting instinct is low and with their fur and general cleanliness, they are very low maintenence (a boxer will clean its fur every day, much as a cat does).
Boxers also come from the same stock as pit bulls / amstaff. In many ways, the are very much alike. Buster plays very well with amstaffs, their pattern of movement is very similar and they seem to enjoy playing the same way. The difference, of course is that the pit bull breeds were created using the terrier temperament.

Whenever I hear someone justify getting an amstaff or pit bull by saying “I wanted a short haired dog, well toned and around 60-70 lbs” I wonder why they didn’t get a boxer. I’m greatful at the same ime, becasue if they did, within 10 years, the boxer would have the same reputation the pit bulls have now.

If pit bulls were to disappear, the bad owners will move on to some other breed.

27

I don’t know where anyone gets off saying that it would be alright to just let an entire breed fall out of existence. Fuck that.

One of my best friends is a dog groomer and trainer for a living. If I didn’t think it would get her into trouble, I would invite any anti-breed activist to spend a week with her - as I did when she was learning her trade. There’s just as much diversity within every dog breed as you find in any human racial group. You get the hyperactive pitt bulls (and incidentally, whoever above said that there’s no one breed that is a specific “pitt bull” is correct), you get your mean pitt bulls, you get your scared pitt bulls, you get your goofy pitt bulls. There’s a relatively even spread across the board, for EVERY breed.

Getting bit is a chance you take having an animal live with you, no matter what kind, be it feline, canine, feathered, or scaled.

Do not get me wrong, I firmly believe that if I had to make a choice, me or the animal, I’d choose me. But that doesn’t mean we can just decide what can and can’t come into existence. We’re not God here. Some of us may think so, but I assure you - it’s just not the case.

People with this mindset are the same people who get angry and want to go hunt mountain lions to extinction every time a person gets chomped - you know, while they were wandering out in the middle of mountain lion territory. Life is not safe, end of story - unless we kill ALL animals on the planet, you’re never not going to run the risk of them going berzerker on you. I mean, fuck, we can’t even control HUMANS, and yet we seem to think that we’ve got some sort of a behavioral leash on fucking ANIMALS? There’s something seriously wrong with that thought process. /rant

On another note, when I lived in PA my roomie and I had a cat named Miranda. This cat loved us to death but she loved to fuck with us, too. She would climb atop a pile of just-laundred clothing, look directly at me, piss all over it, and then rub herself in it. Once we left for a weekend and she was so mad at us that she pissed on the playstation - it never worked right after that. But boy did she loved to cuddle me.

But I’m a bird person. I would really, really like a parrot.

~Tasha

28

[QUOTE=Tamerlane]
Gave away, not killed ( hopefully ).

  • Tamerlane
    [/QUOTE]
    You are correct. He gave it to the SPCA. I misread the first time. My apologies to the **Dutchman **for that false accusation. The rest of my post stands.
29

[QUOTE=Charlie Tan]
I have a boxer, the silliest breed on the planet.
[/QUOTE]

As the owner of a pug, I’m gonna have to disagree with you on that one. She did have a boxer-brother for a while, and while he was silly, the pug is far, far sillier.

Owning a pug is like living with a midget clown who always wants to perform.

30

[QUOTE=Schuyler]
If you’re going to quote statistics from that article, you might also want to touch on the non-fatal dog-bites as well… So, with all due respect, I’ll take my chances against the lightning. Particularly since I’m no longer a child (although my wife will disagree) or a senior citizen.
[/QUOTE]
No argument. I’m not endorsing the idea that Pit Bulls or other aggressive dogs are harmless; simply that the press coverage (and resulting hysteria) has been blown out of proportion.

Since you’ve brought out the nonfatal dog bite stats, it’s worth noting that these stats do not include breed information. In other words, while Pit Bulls may be responsible for 60-70% of the fatality stats, it doesn’t automatically follow that they’re responsible for 60-70% of the other stats as well. Even a Chihuahua can give a nasty enough bite to require a few stitches.

[QUOTE=Schuyler]
Also, the article isn’t necessarily endorsing breed-specific bans:
[QUOTE=CDC]

An alternative to breed-specific legislation is to regulate individual dogs and owners on the basis of their behavior. Although, it is not systematically reported, our reading of the fatal bite reports indicates that problem behaviors (of dogs and owners) have preceded attacks in a great many cases and should be sufficient evidence for preemptive action.
[/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]
I’m in complete agreement with this. I personally feel that any destruction of property, assault or attack by a pet should be considered the owner’s actions, as if they performed the act with their own hands. I doubt it would stop bad pet owners from being bad pet owners, but at least we’d get a few of them off the street.
[QUOTE=Schuyler]
Thanks for the link - I’ve been trying to avoid the Pit Bull thread.
[/QUOTE]
Glad to help. Thanks to the person who originally posted it in the other thread - it’s a terrific set of information.

31

[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman]
I’m all for reality and understanding it, even when someone “on my side” tells me something which even they know is untrue. My German Shepherd would have starved to death before she ever would take a chunk out of me.
[/QUOTE]

Wrong. Given the right circumstances (perceived attack, stress, extreme surprise) any dog will bite. The only way to prevent this is to have all of their teeth removed. If you own a dog, you don’t have to fear it, but you do have to be rational enough to know that, however unlikely, it may bite you.

32

[QUOTE=Tamerlane]
Inappropriate urination in cats is commonly associated with medical problems
[/quote]

So is having the shits for humans Do you got to the doctor every time you are afflicted?

I did not have the resources of the internet at the time, but I had read a lot about pet care. I also knew my pet. From the gitgo I did not want this cat, the rest of my family did. One cat was not enough for them. As much as I like animals, I chose to experiment with this cat who got all the love and attention from other members of my household by deliberately avoiding any interaction with this cat, while all the while lavishing attention on the other cat. I looked for signs that would show me that I had successfully communicated with this cat. I guess I can say I was successful.

Having now looked back, I think this experiment was a shitty thing to do to this cat. It wasn’t cruel, just shitty. It was actually more cruel and dishonest to my kids to give the cat away for a contrived reason on my part. I’m glad that I had a chance to review this episode here. I think I learned something about myself that I don’t like. Hopefully I learned from it.

With regard to inappropriate urination by cats,

33

[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman]
So is having the shits for humans Do you got to the doctor every time you are afflicted?
[/QUOTE]

I think that’s the worst analogy I’ve ever seen.

34

When my camel’s-hair coat eventually falls apart (it’s about 15 years old and good for another five years, I’d say), I’m thinking of getting a simple, everyday used mink from Ritz Furs. For warmth, not for show.

I already have leather shoes and bags, so it would be hypocritical to shun fur, wouldn’t it? I figure “used” doesn’t directly support the fur industry (and the society swans who donate to the Ritz can be relied on to have bought good quality merchandise!).

Anyway, I am undecided (and this year’s warm weather makes it moot for now anyway). There are times I’d like to throw a nice, plain brown mink on to go out in the cold and snow. And there are times when I think, “hmmmm.”

35

If you are willing to deal with the dirty looks from people who won’t know whether you bought it used or new but judge you based on the fact that you are simply wearing the fur coat Eve, I don’t see any problem? I don’t see many people in fur these days but fur coat-wearers give me the same icky feeling as Hummer-drivers. For whatever that’s worth.

36

Minks are vemin. Whenever actvists let them out, they destroy everything they can in their path. I wanted to say “rodent” or “rat”, because that’s basically what they are, but they’re rlated to weasels and badgers (nasty critters too), not rats.

Mink used to be reserved for the wealthy and snce it isn’t a byproduct of other animal husbandry (milk and meat from cattle, byproduct leather), the only reason they’re being farmed is “to let rich women look glamorous”, and as such, it’s an easy target for animal activists (who incidentally, you never see target shops filled with bikers’ black leather gear).

It’s very hard to live according to moral principles, even if you try. I don’t think mink farming is an ethical industry, and there are other ways too keep warm. But a used fur coat is not gonna make the world a worse place.

37

I probably should have a problem with fur, but I don’t. It doesn’t register on me when people wear it. Of course, I’m not very observant and can’t tell you when was the last time I saw someone in fur–real or faux.

38

[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman]
At the age of 10 I was given an opportunity to select a German Shepherd puppy. The father was Hector and the mother was Sheba. How many of you know the name of the parents of your dogs?
[/QUOTE]
Since you ask - my Cavalier King Charles spaniel’s parents were named Patton and Schatzie. Patton was a Cavalier and not a pit bull, though I believe General Patton’s dog was in fact a bull terrier.

I once had a guinea pig named Sheba, which just goes to show you.

39

[QUOTE=Jackmannii]
I believe General Patton’s dog was in fact a bull terrier.

[/QUOTE]

Correct, and his name was William, later changed to Willie.

40

[QUOTE=samm]
If you are willing to deal with the dirty looks from people who won’t know whether you bought it used or new but judge you based on the fact that you are simply wearing the fur coat Eve, I don’t see any problem?
[/QUOTE]
Oh, darling, I revel in being judged.