Oh, for heaven’s sake. An I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I statement. Lovely. Just so you know, this type of you’re-the-bigot-because-you-don’t-like-what-I-say argument has been done before.
To educate, there’s no bigotry involved in judging people on their actions. For an example, when I see someone careening from lane to lane on the freeway, doing 90 while talking into a cell phone, I automatically assume he’s an ass. As Jack Batty said, repeatedly, context is everything. There’s no peer group to which I belong, or have ever belonged, where the word “gay” is used in any way totally divorced from it’s homosexual connotations, whether used in a perjorative sense or not. Thus, my statement that you quoted.
And can you please explain exactly what you have against the concept of “context”? You seem to be arguing that you ought to be able to blurt out any damn thing any place and any time you choose, without thought for exactly whom your audience is composed of. Since I have a hard time believing anyone would advocate such an asinine position, could you please clarify your disagreement?
But see, you missed a couple things. Firstly, I don’t care if you think me a “punk” or not. Secondly, I find your justification of using language that you know is offensive to some people to be silly and boneheaded.
Accepted in some circles. Not in others. And your portestations that “gay” used as an insult is more acceptable than “jew,” “gyp,” “welsh,” and the like are silly. In sone circles “jewed” has and accepted meaning that has nothing to do with Judaism. That in no way means that it was not originated as reflective of negative beliefs about Jews.
Honestly, I’m with Alphagene. I’m not particularly offended, but you’re more than welcome not to care if I were. And I certainly don’t think you’re homophobic for using it. Just don’t try to fool yourself about the word’s origins.
If I restricted the words I use to those that offended no one, I would have a very limited vocabulary. I think the point that is being made in this thread that I DO find valid is the “Take into consideration what others HERE think before you speak” sentiment. It is obvious that the word is offensive to quite a few otherwise reasonable people here. Should it be? I think not. That doesn’t change the reality that it is.
So I am choosing to eliminate that phrase from my future posts. It is a concession I give not because I agree that is rude or insulting. I do it because there are alot of other very cool and fun topics that I do wish to speak to these people about. Out of respect I will refrain.
However, I do find those attitudes to be a little up-tight, closed minded, kinda silly, and totally lacking empathy. The culture of this generation, like all generations before it, has a way of speaking and understanding each other that is based on context (read common experiences). Us using the language this way is totally valid expression. To deny that our common usage of a word is invalid is pretty self-centered.
What is important is not the actual history of words, it is the actual meaning of what the person says. Words are just tools to relate ideas and feelings. If you think someone is being racist, or homophobic, ask them to clarify. If they clearly aren’t, rather than impose your own views so hard on others, you should be a little more accepting of other people and how they relate to each other. Even if you relate to people in a different way. Once you understand the MEANING behind what someone said, the words are unimportant. If I can get my point across by grunting, we have communicated and it is the communication that is important. Not what that grunt might have meant when others use it.
Anyway, that’s about all I got to say about that. I won’t use it here. I know plenty of boards where people speak in that manner. And it is fun, and entertaining, and alot of those people have some very cool things to say. I’m glad I can understand and appreciate them.
I don’t think either will have much effect. But this pit thread will have just as much effect as most other pit threads.
Captain Amazing
Your “two cent” post captures 1/2 of the issue perfectly. In fact, I would go further and say that if it has come to your attention that many Blacks are offended - through sheer ignorance - by the use of the term “niggardly”, you would be a better person if you avoided using it in situations that might offend them.
But the other side of the coin (also worth about two cents) is that the proper thing for insultees is to take into account that there may be multiple meanings of various terms. And not to pretend that anyone who uses such a term meant it in the most insulting manner possible.
(This is not intended to imply any opinion about the term “gay”, about which I haven’t the foggiest notion.)
I agree with this to a degree (it’s one of the points that I make in my ‘classes’ with clients - sort of the 'don’t attribute to malice that which can easily be explained by ignorance -yours or theirs).
However, generally speaking, I hold myself accountable for what I do (as in word selections)- it’s a much more dicey issue to attempt to control how some one feels. So, if some one has an emotional and negative reaction to a word that I’ve selected, while in a perfect world, I’d like all folks to ‘at ease’ and relax about it, things are much more likely to go smoothly without negative incidents and harsh situations if I simply control what I do. (IOW, it’s very nice and all to tell some one “you know, the word is just ‘K***’, it has no power over you unless you give it, and I meant it in this really obscure usage that I just made up, and didn’t intend anything negative about it”, but it may be quite a difficult task for some one to not feel slighted by the intentional use of a derogutory word, regardless of original intent. It’s difficult to ‘unring’ a bell, as it were.)
BuddahDog and dalovindj, you both need some serious courses in etymology, and specifically about the etymological history of the word “gay.” Use google or some such similar web search tool - or, better yet, go read the links in my .sig (I believe it was covered several times). Gay went from happy to depraved (happy for licentious reasons) to homosexual ('cause we’re all depraved, don’t you know) to lame. “Gay” used as “lame” did not spontaneously spring into existence independent of its previous usages - it came from derogatorily using the word “gay” as “homosexual.” If you can’t see how disrespectful and offensive that is, that’s your problem, but don’t stand there shocked and appalled, never mind defensive, when people call you on it and let you know they’re offended by your usage.
Where were you guys when I got slaughtered in the “Rap sucks!” thread? Sheesh! I got accused of everything from bitch-slapping the first amendment and stealing everyone’s right to free speech to having a huge chip on my shoulder (the next step was surely accusations of rampant PMS, I have no doubt) for saying the same exact thing: the word “gay” offends people, both homo- and heterosexual, and should be used carefully.
Here’s my main point: “Gay” = lame. “Gay” is therefore a derogatory insult. To be “gay” is an inherently bad thing. “Gay” = homosexual. To be homosexual is then a bad thing.
I got in trouble using that word in second grade, when I didn’t even know what it meant, or what homosexuality was. Since then, it has always seemed insulting and offensive to me, regardless of context. My homosexual friends get seriously pissed when someone uses that word, and I do as well. It smacks of ignorance and disrespect.
If you want to use it, be my guest. But I am most certainly going to lose respect for your intelligence, your vocabulary, your manners, your respect for others, and your peers, who are obviously numbnuts.
If you don’t like it, fuck off. You can use the word, I can disrespect you for it. There’s your fucking first amendment.
Izzy, with all due respect, I think that is going a bit too far. While I rarely if ever use the word, (It IS fairly uncommon) I would not simply refrain from usage because of someones ignorance.
People who use the gay/lame thing know full well that the word “gay” has a common, accepted connotation.
“niggardly” is simply a word that due to pronunciation vaguely resembles a common racial slur. I am sure, given time, I could think of many other words like that. Just because a person might not know the meaning of a word, said word is not automatically “bad”.
In a case like that, I would welcome the opportunity to maybe fight a little ignorance.
My comments were in reference to an actual incident in Washington DC a few years back. I don’t think it is incumbent on anyone to figure out for themselves that people might be ignorant about this. But if it has come to light that they may, I maintain that it would be nicer to avoid using it in such situations. There are other words that can be used. I don’t think the word is “bad”, but why upset people if you don’t have to?
Precisely. Beliefs that come about due to religion deserve no more or no less respect than beliefs that come about due to other influences.
“I hate fags because the Bible says they are evil” deserves no more and no less respect than “I hate niggers because I read a book that says they are evil.” I condemn each belief, and make no allowance for how the person came to that belief.
Conversely, “I help the poor in my town because the Bible tells me to” deserves no more and no less respect than “I help the poor in my town because Marx wrote that we should.” I applaud the attitude, and don’t care how the person came to that belief.
Izzy, I am well aware of the incident you refer to. However, I will not let a word get bastardized because of a vague pronunciation based on ignorance. In words of the Pit, that is pure bullshit.
I still maintain that the word “niggardly” should not be withdrawn from the language simply because of objections from ignorant people.