Thanks for the passage. I’ll repeat that whole post here:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[my question to you] Within your view, is a person actually baptized by accepting (spiritually) the Christian ideals?
In another thread, you stated “Because we are God.” By this definition, couldn’t that apply to the question I asked you about baptism?
I kind of miss the point as to why Jesus says this, except he seems to be in a no-win situation if he were to give the information as to authority.
I’m not trying to be disrespectful or smart-aleck by asking you about this, just trying to clarify. If you would like to answer me from the Reality thread (herein linked) that might be a better idea, just because this is somewhat removed from the OP of this thread.
I’m not at all saying that I think people should be excluded from the rituals, but there’s a distinction to be made between not participating and not believing. I may believe in transubstantion and yet not receive communion, or believe that a priest can absolve my sins and still not go to confession ( both of which have described me at various points). Those who believe but don’t practice may indeed be drawn into practicing by being included in the rituals. I’m talking about people who don’t believe a priest has any more power to absolve sins than I do,or who believe the bread and wine are symbolic. I don’t think that participating in a ritual is going to change those beliefs. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with holding those beliefs,just that I don’t understand why someone who holds them would want to participate in Catholic rituals rather than those of a denomination that also holds those beliefs.
I’m not much of a biblical scholar, but I think I remember something about a good shepherd going out looking for the lost sheep, or something.
It would seem that in both cases you mentioned, the minister in question seemed prone to caring only for those members of the flock who had not wandered off, instead of seeking out the lost sheep.
I had a similar situation recently. As I grew up I was raised a Southern baptist. I was baptized and a member of the church. eventually aroung the age of 14 we left the church and tried many different churched. recently however, I was looking for a pastor to do my wedding ceremony. I went to talk to “pastor Bob” and he informed me that they had absolved me from the member’s registry. This was done because I was no in regular attendance. He did mention though, that if wanted to attend on a regular basis with my husband for 6 months he would marry us then. We were getting married in 3 months! for Christ sake!
Anyway, I found a wonderful presbyterian pastor who did it for me on the beach. He was awsome. he even copunseled us for free fo several weeks before the wedding. I’m glad it worked out that way.
As for “pastor Bob”, I should drop him a note about how many drugs his two adored grandsons have been selling at my younger brother’s high school!
tubagirl, when I was married to my first husband, it was important to him and his mother that our first child be baptized in the Catholic church. We attended the church nearest us for several months, but never signed up as members, although both of us are baptized Catholics.
When I was close to term, I called the priest of the parish to ask about the possibility of having the baby baptized there. When he found out that my husband was a divorced Catholic, and that he and his ex-wife had not had their marriage annulled, he chastised me for “only coming to the church when we needed something.” I explained that we had been attending services for several months, but had not become members yet.
He continued to berate me, and to tell me that my husband and I were living in sin because his first marriage had not been annulled. Eventually, we went to a different church where the priest was willing to baptize our baby, and we attended regularly and remained members until we moved out of the area. So I guess there are bad pastors and priests, and good ones. I must admit that I expected there to be more good ones because of the very nature of their profession.
Coming from a minister (even if this doesn’t help any) I understand. As a Christian first, fill-in preacher whenever necessary, and person I understand how you fill. There are certain “Christians” I know that literally make me sick because of how they live. Jesus told the story of the “Good Samaritan.” His emphasis in this story was on compassion. The preacher at where I go last njght talked about certain pastors who don’t notice people because of problems they have, are too busy or other BS (pardon my language). :). BUT all pastors aren’t like that. The irony of the story was that the one person to help the Jew was one of the members of a people that was hated by Jews. In conclusion it sounds to me like these pastors have never heard of the great commandment “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind and your strength AND love your neighbor as yourself.” We pastors would do very well to remember this so please bear with us.
I agree with most of the opinions posted here, but see a complication in the counseling issue.
While the pastor most likely agrees that the girl needs counseling, how is he to approach it considering the two primary examples she has (her parents) in the area of pre-marital sex are not willing to adhere to the “rules” that they would like for her to follow? The most effective thing to do would probably have the whole family receive counsel, but how could this happen?
I’m not trying to be judgmental, but if you are trying to go to a source to give your child advice that you don’t agree with, how will the child receive it? I know that you are not the one that sought out the advice of this individual, but it sounds like the kids involved are attending a school that is religiously influenced. Would it be better to send them to a non-religious school and seek the advice of a secular counselor?
OK, the priest was right in telling you that you are living in sin because your husband’s first marriage was never annulled. According to Church law, you are living in adultery. I recommend that you contact the judical vicar of your diocese and get the situation rectified. Also, you should not be receiving communion. Some liberal priests will give someone who is divorced and remarried communion, but they shouldn’t.
Now, the priest was definitely wrong to berate you for “only coming to the church when you need something”, when in fact you had been in regular attendance for several months, and, I assume, putting money in the collection plate. This is rude beyond belief. If there was a reason that he couldn’t do the baptism because of canon law, he should have gently but politely explained this to you. But church law does not forbid baptism of an infant because of parent’s marital status, parish membership, etc. If there is a parish jurisdictional problem, the priest who does the baptism is simply required to inform the priest of the parish that normally would have jurisdiction. (This is a common situation, especially when the family is Byzantine Catholic and there is no Byzantine Rite church in the area and the child has to be baptized in the Latin Rite)
I once worked with a guy who was Catholic and never baptized because his parents didn’t belong to the parish in the area in which they lived, and they couldn’t get to the parish that his parents technically belonged to.
I made my decision to come home to the Catholic Church based on my belief in the doctrines and dogmas of the Church. If I had based it on whether or not individual priests, parishoners, bishops were assholes, I’d probably still be trying to piece together sort of a wierd self-styled Hindo-shamanistic Bhuddism with Islam sauce, and floundering spiritually…
Wow… Sounds exactly like something my dickhead brother-in-law would do.
He’s not a hypocrite. He’s an asshole, though.
Yer pal,
Satan
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I see your point somewhat, especially since the big issue to him seems to be “living in sin.” I myself am more worried about the possibility of this child [did I say we were talking about a female child?] prematurely becoming a parent, or catching a disease, or having her/his heart broken, which to me are really good reasons not to engage in sex before you are more mature and hopefully ready to handle it. But since I am agnostic, I would not have those same issues the pastor has, I guess.
Just a guess, but Satan may have been responding to the OP rather than what you wrote just previously to his post.
Thanks for the advice about the priest, but that was many years ago (that daughter is now 22). I think that the priest who did this may have mellowed somewhat throughout the years; he was not much older than I was at the time of the incident. I also think he is no longer in the area, but I couldn’t say for sure. I no longer attend Catholic services. If I do go to church, it is to the local Unitarian Universalist Church, which welcomes pretty much everyone who tries to be a decent person.
I have a friend who is a sort of Catholic that comes from the Slavic countries, but I can’t remember the specific kind. What is the Byzantine mass like? I often thought masses were quite beautiful in some of the churches I attended.
Is your brother-in-law a pastor also? Probably a dumb question, but there was a little confusion about your post.
What shocked me so much about the pastor mentioned in the OP, was that he seemed to be such a nice guy. Even though I had heard about the earlier incident, after I met him I had dismissed it as a fluke or that the guy was having a bad day.
Is your brother-in-law overtly an asshole, or sneaky about it?
If your friend belongs to one of the Slavic Churches, she is most likely Byzantine. My particular church is Italo-Greek Byzantine, but we have a little of just about everything from converted former Southern Baptists to Arabs.
The Byzantine liturgy (please don’t call it Mass, Fr. Francis gets a little upset) is very beautiful.
The whole liturgy, except for the communion prayer, is sung from beginning to end. In vernacular, although in my church, the responses in the litanies are sung in Greek.
If you’re ever in Las Vegas, come visit us sometime.
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