I am officially no longer a football fan.

[storyteller0910]

@Ellis Dee

This is a fool’s complaint, and shame on all the professional analysts for not understanding the rules of football.

Think it through. The objection boils down to the fact that without those 30 yards, the kickoff could have been returned past the twenty, thus meaning that the final play – snapped with 4 seconds left – would have gotten into the endzone instead of falling 2 yards short.

Nobody seems to be aware that returning a kick takes time. When a kickoff goes into the endzone, no time whatsoever is run off the clock, since it doesn’t start winding until somebody touches the ball.

Therefore, the same logic that pushes the final play from 2 yards short to into the endzone ALSO prevents the play from ever being run, since the kick return would have eaten up at least 4 seconds.

Therefore, those two penalties had no effect on the game’s outcome.

Well, no easily predictable effect. A returned kick likely gives the Ravens the ball at or around their own 35 yard line with about 36 seconds remaining and one time out (with a chance of a better return, but also a chance of a game-ending fumble). I’d say that is a marginally better situation than on their own 20 yard line with 44 seconds left and one time out.

[EllisDee]

@storyteller0910

Well, no easily predictable effect. A returned kick likely gives the Ravens the ball at or around their own 35 yard line with about 36 seconds remaining and one time out (with a chance of a better return, but also a chance of a game-ending fumble). I’d say that is a marginally better situation than on their own 20 yard line with 44 seconds left and one time out.

Agreed, but that’s why I labelled it a fool’s complaint. Mike Golic was the worst, going off on it multiple times this morning. The argument boils down to if it were a regular kickoff, then that final play would have been run 5-10 yards further downfield, putting the last catch into the endzone instead of 2 yards short.

It just doesn’t work that way, and even if it did, the time used up in the return prevents the final play from being run in the first place.

[ShadowFacts]

@Ellis Dee

This is a fool’s complaint, and shame on all the professional analysts for not understanding the rules of football.

Think it through. The objection boils down to the fact that without those 30 yards, the kickoff could have been returned past the twenty, thus meaning that the final play – snapped with 4 seconds left – would have gotten into the endzone instead of falling 2 yards short.

Nobody seems to be aware that returning a kick takes time. When a kickoff goes into the endzone, no time whatsoever is run off the clock, since it doesn’t start winding until somebody touches the ball.

Therefore, the same logic that pushes the final play from 2 yards short to into the endzone ALSO prevents the play from ever being run, since the kick return would have eaten up at least 4 seconds.

Therefore, those two penalties had no effect on the game’s outcome.

I mostly agree with your point, although I think you overstate the final sentence. First off, I’m pretty sure there were 8 seconds left for the final hail mary, but that’s really besides the point. My point is that the sequence of events in those last 44 seconds might have been markedly different without those penalties. Figurs (the return man) was having some success in the return game, so I don’t think it’s a stretch to think he might’ve gotten to the 30 or 35 yard line on a return. Then the Ravens have 35-37 seconds with one time out to go about 35-40 yards for a field goal try. Not easy, particularly with the wind, but much easier than starting from the 20. That field position made a hail mary the only possible chance.

I don’t say this to agree with Mosier at all. Just that I think the penalties did have an effect on the subsequent game play.

To me, if there’s a lesson to be learned here, it’s not “penalties are determining the outcome of games,” it’s “don’t commit stupid penalties and you might have a chance to win.” Bart Scott’s meltdown in the endzone was the height of unprofessionialism and potentially cost his team a legit shot to tie the game. It seems to me that rather than being a pro and trying to use the time left to win the game, he basically gave up and said “that’s it, game over, and I’m going to bitch and moan about it,” even though there were 44 seconds left. (He can thank his teammates for holding him back, too - I thought he was going to assault that referee).

You want to see how a true professional team does it? I point you to the last minute of the Patriots vs. Rams in the Super Bowl.

[EllisDee]

From NFL.com play-by-play, here’s how the Patriots kickoffs went last night, in order:

1: 9 yard return to the 29, 5 seconds run off clock
2: 23 yard return to the 22, 6 seconds run off clock
3: 17 yard return to the 27, 4 seconds run off clock
4: 38 yard return to the 44, 11 seconds run off clock
5: 17 yard return to the 28, 4 seconds run off clock
6: Touchback

This would appear to support my point, since all of them (except the final touchback) took at least 4 seconds, and 4 of the 5 returns resulted with them starting between the 20 and 29.

If you tack the potential return yardage onto the final play, you have to subtract the return time from the clock, giving you no final play to tack yards onto.

[EllisDee]

@ShadowFacts

First off, I’m pretty sure there were 8 seconds left for the final hail mary

Crap, you’re right. What the hell was I watching this morning that led me to believe it was 4 seconds?

Gotta cut down on my morning cup of crack, I guess.

(the return man) was having some success in the return game, so I don’t think it’s a stretch to think he might’ve gotten to the 30 or 35 yard line on a return.

I don’t see the justification for that claim based on the numbers I posted above.

[ShadowFacts]

@Ellis Dee

Agreed, but that’s why I labelled it a fool’s complaint. Mike Golic was the worst, going off on it multiple times this morning. The argument boils down to if it were a regular kickoff, then that final play would have been run 5-10 yards further downfield, putting the last catch into the endzone instead of 2 yards short.

I completely agree with you here - that is just a rock solid stupid argument.

[Gangster_Octopus]

@Ellis Dee

From NFL.com play-by-play, here’s how the Patriots kickoffs went last night, in order:

1: 9 yard return to the 29, 5 seconds run off clock
2: 23 yard return to the 22, 6 seconds run off clock
3: 17 yard return to the 27, 4 seconds run off clock
4: 38 yard return to the 44, 11 seconds run off clock
5: 17 yard return to the 28, 4 seconds run off clock
6: Touchback

This would appear to support my point, since all of them (except the final touchback) took at least 4 seconds, and 4 of the 5 returns resulted with them starting between the 20 and 29.

If you tack the potential return yardage onto the final play, you have to subtract the return time from the clock, giving you no final play to tack yards onto.

There were 8 seconds left on the clock for that final play.

[EllisDee]

@Gangster Octopus

There were 8 seconds left on the clock for that final play.

Already noted.

[ShadowFacts]

@Ellis Dee

I don’t see the justification for that claim based on the numbers I posted above.

I admit those numbers look worse than I remember (perhaps Figurs’ nice punt return skewed my perception). Nevertheless, taking out the penalty-induced touchback at the end, those numbers average out to a starting field position of the 30 yard line, so I don’t think my comment was off the mark.

[Philster]

It is more clock efficient to get yardage on a return than on a play during a series. If the ball is returned to say the 35 yard line, the clock then stops. If you run play that gets you to the 35, then the clock keeps running…

So, the penalties could have mattered greatly.