I’m confused. Is lankyblonde arguing that because this world sucks and is full of dangerous things, we shouldn’t have children?
Mankind had to deal with organized wholesale sociopaths since the beginning, to be sure. It came so often that weaponry followed an amazing path of development: from the spatha and kopis, to the gladius, to the Viking Ulfbert, to the Frankish, the two-handed sword, the rapier, the saber, the bayonet.
Guess what, man looks back to those times as being the most glorious, romantic periods in history.
That’s a bit of a confused list.
If it is meant to show the development of the sword, then kopis, rapier and bayonet should be out. Ulberth is essentially Frankish.
That leaves gladius–> spatha –> Frankish —>sabre.
No, she is arguing that you should get the unborn child’s permission first, preferably in writing (and don’t forget to notarize).
Seriously though, parents have the legal and moral obligation to make all manner of decisions for their children (presumably in their best interests) until they are of legal age (usually 18). There is no reason that decision making responsibility should not apply to their very existence itself. Even if you COULD get permission, since when does a child (an unborn one, at that!) have a clue as to what their best interests are?
How about “specialized bladed weapons?” That way I could have included the FS dagger and the USMC Kabar knife.
The rapier is not a sword??? :dubious:
Anyway, off topic.
Maybe she got over this way of thinking.
I’d like to bypass all the snarky responses that this thread elicited and answer your question honestly and directly. Yes, it’s true: your parents had you for THEIR benefit, NOT YOURS. It was logically impossible for them to conceive, and conceive of, you with your well-being in mind because you didn’t yet exist. They assuaged any doubts they may have had by telling themselves that they would provide and care for you to the best of their abilities. Yet, they had no idea what the future would hold, and whether their abilties would, in fact, be adequate to the task. Nor did they know if simple bad luck would strike.
The world’s mythologies, particularly Christianity, have evaded this moral problem by pretending that you existed in some fashion before you were conceived, one explanation being that you were a soul waiting in line for an earthly body, and that your parents did you a wonderful service by allowing you into the world.
That is utter, evil hogwash.
We don’t like to admit that life is a “gift” that many, many people wouldn’t have accepted if they had a choice. Existing on this earth is NOT, repeat, NOT an intrinsic good. It also has to come with certain amenities, such as a relative lack of pain, misery, fear, hunger, etc. I don’t think the parents of their eighth child in someplace like an impoverished village in Burkina Faso were doing the kid any favors at all. We in the materially wealthy time and places we live in see life as good and desirable, to the point where we create it without asking. So I sympathize with your question and the spirit in which you asked it. Personally, while I’m glad I’m alive, I’ve never felt grateful. And I can only imagine how I would feel if I lived in constant pain and misery, or even if simply my existence was a constant struggle to materially survive.
Hogwash? Millions of Christians, especially Catholics, disagree, as do right to lifers. They do feel that giving life and creating more followers for God is a divine decree and that life is a gift. For those who feel that growing the flock adds to the greater good, denying a child life is the most selfish act imaginable and parenthood is a selfless act.
Well…much of the stuff that millions of Catholics believe, and believe in, is, in fact, utter hogwash, tripe, drivel, nonsense, bullshit, etc., including that there are such things as God, divine decrees, or human souls that exist outside the body. This is yet another example of how mystical beliefs cause unimaginable human suffering: belief in an imaginary deity keeps us from humanely terminating an existence (ours or others’) that has become unbearable.
The fact that a great many people, a vast majority in fact, of the world’s inhabitants believe in a magical deity or deities of some kind does not in any way increase the likelihood of those deities actually existing beyond the actual likelihood of “infinitesimally small.”
Cite? As far as I know, this is not a doctrine held by any major branch of Christianity.
I’m not sure the correlation between material wealth and satisfaction with life is as strong as you say.
When it comes to the question of whether life is worth living, I believe meaning counts for at least as much as comfort, pleasure, and lack of pain. (Recommended reading: Victor Frankl’s Man’s Search for Meaning) And, in fact, having and loving and raising children is one of the ways people (try to) find meaning in their lives.
I don’t need to cite; children in Catholic schools get told this all the time. It also is indeed a major tenet of Christian doctrine, as that particular piece of mythology is behind the rite of baptism and associated beliefs about children who die young. I don’t really want to go digging in the muck of Christian dogma, nor do I have audio recordings of my years in Catholic school, so you’ll just have to not believe me. I’m fine with that, actually.
There may not be a 1:1 correlation between material wealth and happiness, but I’m sure it’s relatively strong, especially at the low end of the spectrum. I don’t see how you can be very happy without adequate food, shelter, clothing, medical care, etc. I also, referring to the original topic, think that since parents can’t guarantee that their children will have an adequate quality of life, that having children is a fundamentally selfish decision. This actually relates to people having children, as you say, to find meaning in their lives. This means that you are creating a living being to satisfy your own needs. This seems to me to be morally equivalent to having a baby because you might need compatible transplant organs in the future.
We are all entitled to search for meaning in our lives, but we are NOT entitled to seek it by exploiting others. That includes our children. If I had a child and his/her life was an unalloyed misery (even despite all my best efforts), every single bit of that misery and suffering would be on my shoulders. It’s a tremendous responsibility, and accountability, that most people don’t think of when they get drunk and play hide the salami.
Leaving out the “evil” aspect, your own response is most accurate:
I know of no major Christian faith that holds that to be true and it is explicitly false in regards to the Catholic Church.
Not only do I choose to not believe you, I will declare for those who may not be aware of it that your claim is (as you said), “utter. . . hogwash.” The Catholic Church does not teach this, has never taught it. I can see why you would not want to go trying to dig up citations, since you would undoubtedly fail.
Now, could there have been some nun in some school who passed off this bit of silliness to her students? Sure. However, that does not make it a teaching of the church.
You cannot even get your appeal to examples right. The doctrines regarding baptism are predicated on the belief that the child came into existence at the moment of conception, not on a belief that a heaven-waiting soul was dumped into the body at that point.
It is true that Origen proposed a pre-existent soul, but that is one reason why he never made it into the list of Catholic theologians. Explicitly, the church condemned a belief in the pre-existence of souls at the second Council of Constantinople in 553.
Then you are also clinically depressed and need to get help. Even people who live sucky situations, if they are mentally sound, learn to live with it and get as much joy as they can out of it. I was stuck in my house for four years. Was I unhappy? Not most of the time. A normally functioning brain adapts.
There is much more good about your life than bad. Concentrating on the bad is what causes depression. You need to deal with this. Otherwise, you are constantly torturing yourself just by existing.
And, yes, if the OP hadn’t acted like life sucked, there could have actually been a discussion here. But she poisoned the well by arguing that every parent (which includes most of the people here) are evil.
I am not a Christian and don’t need your lecture. But I will stress again that to many, many people bearing and/or adopting children is not a selfish act but the most selfless act to glorify God.
As an atheist who made a conscious decision to bear a child, I will cop to committing a selfish but deliberately hopeful act along with a promise to ensure that my child has all the tools she needs to contribute to the net Good in the world while enjoying her life. And if you ever rear a child you will find out in the first month of her life what a selfless act having a child is because for a good 18 years they take far more than they give and it is entirely up to you to feel the altruistic satisfaction of giving all you’ve got to another.
You’re way off base, is what I’m saying. Some people bear/acquire children out of carelessness, some out of the foolish belief that children will enhance their lives. But many people sacrifice their own peace and happiness in order to put all their time and energy into helping others grow. Don’t labor too long under the belief that your own parents benefitted more from your existence than you did from theirs.