You are the OP, and so while you do not own the thread, as the person who proposed the idea of this thread it is helpful to know what your opinion is about certain matters. And, let’s be clear, you are the predominant voice in this thread. (Which to me is fine, that’s common for anyone who creates a thread.)
It’s your thread, Sly, and someone asked you a question. I suppose answering it is too much to ask, eh?
You wrote: “In an attempt to get this thread in the direction I’d like it to go, I’m going to make up a list of the top co-conspirators I believe deserve long prison terms. If all of them get it, it won’t matter (much) if Trump skates freely.”
Given that, I’m asking whether, if you had a choice between ‘all of them get it, but Trump skates free’ or ‘all of them but one get it, and Trump doesn’t skate free’, you’d pick the former or the latter.
If there’s a case to be made that someone has earned a prison sentence, I don’t give a crap whether they used to be the president.
Sorry I can’t help, then. This is not about me, much as you may like it to be. I raised a subject, and I’m interested in discussing it, not my own feelings and preferences. What’s your position?
I personally think that they could all end up in prison but if the person on top doesn’t, it will encourage others to repeat his antics. Because they’ll see he got away with it.
A person like Trump, or who wants to be like Trump, does not care at all what happens to anyone else.
And it doesn’t matter how many supporters get caught and thrown in jail. That will just mean the other supporters see an opportunity to take their place. That’s how it has worked so far for Trump.
If he skates, nothing else will matter.
I’m not entirely sure that someone like a new Quasi-Trump cares what happens to anyone that isn’t them, and that includes Trump. All bets are probably off when it comes to imagining what acts as a deterrent for such people.
Okay, THIS is what I find overstated.
I don’t think Trump would have behaved any differently if Nixon, say, or any other President would have gotten punished severely for political misdeeds in office. Trump has a few loose screws, among his other problems, that would have said “That doesn’t apply to me” and he would have gone along his sociopathic path, or at least tried to.
What WOULD have prevented him was is none of his aides were willing to comply with his requests. And few would have if they’d seen what happened to previous President’s aides who’d aided an insurrection.
Totally disagree. Trump has a long history of not paying people. Or suing them to avoid paying. Yet there is always some sucker that is willing to take the job.
Same with his lawyers that are constantly getting into trouble or discredited.
People can SEE that everything he touches turns to shit, not gold, yet they want the notoriety (or whatever) to have had worked for him. Even if they get ruined because they did.
Trump found a bottomless pit of people willing to do his bidding. The next person will too.
Humans are masters at deceiving. Deceiving themselves.
Cutting the head off the snake is a MUCH bigger message, and would set a president.
Well, obviously.
Dammit.
Precedent
This is what I’m not so sure of.
Future sociopathic presidents are unlike to hear that message–they’ll always think “Well, Trump was stupid, and I’m smart” or"I’ll avoid that idiot Trump’s mistakes" or something of that sort. Can’t stop people from being sociopaths.
And I did think that the prison sentences of Nixon’s enablers may have saved us from a successful insurrection this last time. A core of Trump’s aides, even up to Bill Barr finally, did think “Uh oh, I ain’t doing THAT for this guy–I could wind up in the clink” which represented a considerable aid in stifling his master plan. If you up the penalties–by sending all of his enablers off to jail for long stretches–you reinforce that message, and enough of them say “Uh uh” to prevent the next insurrection from even getting off the ground.
I see where you are coming from, but I do very much mind because it is a message to ne’er-do-wells that they can do the most horrific, criminal and traitorous things and get off scot-free. For any malignant narcissist, and Trump is that in capital letters, being humiliated before the world and reduced to nothing is the worst punishment possible outside of an outright execution.
Yeah. There is good and bad. If there is nobody for these mooks to support, we are good. But both the supporters and the chief rat will think that THEY are too smart to get in trouble.
But as we see it now R’s are rattling (not there sabers but their tails. Bunch of snakes that they are) about impeaching Biden. For what, is anyone’s guess. It’s completely nothing more than childish revenge of course. Throw Trump in prison, and they will be quite pissed. So be it.
The law is the law. There should not be multiple sets of rules. We already have that of course, but we need to reverse course.
Right, I think one example of such dual standards and a pathway that would be useful to close off is that of a Presidential pardon. The concept does not compute for me.
That in itself must act as, if not an encouragement, then at least a backstop. It certainly can’t discourage mis-deeds.
Assuming that a substantive investigation happens, I think the top 5 could genuinely face some sort of serious consequences. Once you get to a sitting Senator the bar gets raised quite a lot, and I’m much less confident about the rest of the list (although I’d love to see Barr squirm on a witness stand).
A hypothetical. I will use Trump as an example. But it could also apply to the next snake.
What if Trump really does run. What if he WINS (unlikely I know) He’s not in very good health. He can pick whomever he wants for VP. Let’s just consider that could mean a President Greene. Or a President Gaetz. The list goes on.
Attempting to overthrow the government needs to be a HARD STOP. For all of these chuckle heads of course, but the leader of this needs to be shown a courtroom.
Probably a topic for another thread (feel free) but I agree with the sentiment entirely. Not doing away with Presidential pardons but placing restrictions on them makes sense to me.
Sure, pardons per se are not necessarily bad but the misuse for political means certainly is and Trump did so to an obscene extent. It is not beyond the wit of man to implement some further hurdles to make sure that can’t happen.
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VP. Let’s just consider that could mean a President Greene. Or a President Gaetz. The list goes on.
I sleep poorly enough please don’t add more to my nightmare fuel.
Trump needs to serve serious time for a few reasons IMHO. He broke the law several times over, and we are supposed to be a nation of laws. We can’t let him get away with this garbage without punishment.
Also, pardoning Nixon gave way to too much wiggle room for this sort of questioning. Now is the time to make sure that anyone else that does this gets the full force of the law brought against them.
It needs to be a cultural change that just because you became president you cannot ignore the law and expect to keep your freedom. Not because it may “stop the next Trumpy loon” but because it is the law and expected in our culture, as said above: precedent.
If it was the typical (and correct response) to the corruption, and law breaking of Trump and in retrospect Nixon, to bring them to justice and imprison them for their crimes, then we would do it all the time. There would be less hand wringing and worrying about, “Optics.” It would be the thing to do, and the next malignant narcissist that gets himself/herself elected might think she/he can get away with it … won’t.
His supporters: I don’t care how they feel or what they do. They are nuts and whether or not he goes to prison they are going to keep harassing anyone they perceive as against them. They are terrorists who Trump has give permission to them to be loud and proud about hating anyone who doesn’t look like them or think like them. They need to be shown that even though they worship him, not everyone does. When they act on their evil, then they need to face the law. Just like their leader.
The law is the law, and the crap that’s been going on (torturing election officials in particular) needs to start being enforced. Trumps hand in all of this and his constant lying and lawbreaking, needs to be stopped. Yes, his enablers need to pay also, but he is the ugly head of the hydra. You can’t just cut the head off you need to burn the stump.
Yup. And yes to the rest of your post. Trump supporters will likely crawl back under their rocks. Fine.
They may try to stay in the sun and fight. Fine. We can deal with them. One at a time if need be. Prison for you, prison for you too. It’s going to take a while.
We should not, as a nation of laws allow this charade to continue.