What a bizarre thread. I concur with everything brickbacon said. And do so as a not particularly hip white woman of a certain age who isn’t much of a fan one way or another. Beyoncé is beautiful, talented, incredibly hard working and her songs apparently captures the eye of people that like popular music. Add in her “empire” with Jay and there’s really no reason not to understand her enduring megastardom. Some of her stuff maybe a lot less creative or distinctive as other performers (for example, I hated Single Ladies), but most stuff that’s more mainstream isn’t.
Oh, and there I was, thinking that we were talking about artistic talent. Silly me. But yeah, they all made billions with their… activities ergo, they’re great talents.
Kim Kardashian isn’t an artist, though. And never claimed to be. She’s a very successful business woman, which does take a certain amount of intelligence, savvy and, yes, talent.
That her springboard was a sex tape with a D-list celebrity makes it hard for some people to acknowledge that.
Yeah, I have no problem with that. It’s just that I didn’t quite get what we were talking about I guess.
Well, to be honest, it’s her mother who has the business talent. Kim would have faded into obscurity long ago and the rest of her family would be unheard of if not for the promotional and business savvy of their mother.
We’re talking about how Beyonce (and I guess Kim Kardashian) can be so famous even though the OP doesn’t like her music or think her music shows much talent.
The answer does not lie entirely in her talent for music, or Kim’s talent for anything.
The Beatles seemed to be a phenomenon but I wasn’t around to witness it personally. But listening to their music I can easily see why their considered the greatest rock band. Elvis, don’t know too much about.
Now Jay-Z…I don’t like his music. He is a great lyricist, but he has a weak voice and I just can’t get into a lot of his music. But “Hard Knock Life” and even stuff like “H to the Izzo” is pretty good imo, and I consider him one of the greatest in rap, from an objective point of view. Oh yeah, “Empire State of Mind” was a great song as well. What rappers or rap songs do you like? Late 80s? Mid 90s? Underground?
I was surprised Christina Aguilera still makes good music (imo). She was doing impersonations of other singers on the Tonight Show and she did a better Brittney than Brittney! Alicia Keys is great, and SHE has a great voice.
Jay-Z turned her into that or she turned herself into that?
I’m surprised though at that verse. That’s some pretty crass lyrics for someone of Beyonce’s status. I always thought R & B singers were more about love and relationships but now the guys are singing like rappers (Chris Brown-These Hoes Ain’t Loyal) and Rihanna doing strip club videos. But still, I thought Beyonce was older, and more mature.
In regards to Michelle Obama, maybe she says that so younger voters or young people in general will identify with her more.
Same with Obama. I would think that someone of his intelligence and role as leader of the country WOULDN’T have Jay-Z or even “a little Lil Wayne” on his iPod. Jay-Z has constantly rapped about being a drug dealer and other criminal activity. He doesn’t narrate stories about that, he claims he really did all that. Lil Wayne is/was a drug addict, raps about killing people, about being in a gang (he has MOB PIRU tatted on his chest), about being a Blood gangster, etc. Now I know he doesn’t really kill people, but he is affiliated with Blood gangs in both Compton and in New Orleans. I would think the president wouldn’t want to give money to people like that. But either way, putting out his iPod list was probably just a calculated move on the part of his election strategy to get young and older voters to identify with him (he also mentioned Miles Davis, Bruce Springsteen).
I think Marco Rubio tried to copy that tactic by mentioning Tupac and playing up his importance. I grew up on Tupac’s music but the majority of his music was actually a detrimental message for listeners, with some positivity sprinkled in, or as Tupac would say, “rap for the bitches, because the bitches will buy your records.”
As someone else already said, it’s been like that for a long time. Elvis with his gyrating hips, John Lennon and Yoko naked for their album covers, Madonna with “Boy Toy”, Erotica book, and dress with holes in the front to show off her boobs…
I like Nicki Minaj, but from the beginning she emulated the image of Lil Kim, which was to sell with sex in mind. I think she’s become more desperate in last few years though, especially with competition from Iggy and others. I think it’s sad that she incorporated lap dances into her performances but strip clubs are so mainstream now, their not viewed as places for lonely male perverts, but instead social spots where guys and girls go to.
Miley Cyrus wanted badly to shake off her Hannah Montana image.
If Beyonce’s main goal is to stay #1 and successful, it’s probably smart on her part to get “dirty” like Nicki Minaj and Miley to stay relevant among younger fans.
She looks just like that in some of her videos.
I like Nicki Minaj but not Beyonce.
I agree except for the part about it’s getting tamer. Is it in regards to female musicians? Or musicians in general? Because all the videos I see are usually featuring strippers or women do strip-acts, among other things.
Yeah but they also court that as well. They want to the media and the older crowd to criticize them so they can get a little light weight infamy, get publicity, and be viewed as “rebellious” and cool to the younger crowd.
It’s like that in all aspects of life. People generally only care about furthering their own careers or monetary success as the expense of social responsibility. I don’t know about Mick Jagger to comment on him being a good or bad role model, but only getting $$$ is what counts in this country. Are neighbors to south are having their society destroyed by the drug cartels, and we have our problem with drug violence and consumption in the US, and you have dummies like Miley Cyrus singing about doing lines of coke.
Do you have some examples?
is it Black culture, or just modern/youth oriented pop culture? The previous generation usually dislikes the current one. Not saying that’s the case here either, but I’d chalk it up to that before I would to being biased against Black culture. Or maybe they just don’t like rap music.
Iff’n Kanye’s fer her…I’m agin 'er.
Good things.
But of course I recognize that she is a star in terms of record sales and media attention. I am saying that that seems disconnected to her level of musical talent and the quality of her actual songs.
Sure, I’ve been aware of her at least since the second Austin Powers movie. In a way, she seemed bigger for her music then than she does now.
Beyonce certainly “deserves” her fame more now if we are talking about talent and quality output, but the ways in which they are both currently famous are rather similar. They are both in the media because they are both just such a big deal in the media, and they play the media as humans-qua-brands.
I have already recognized that she has big sales. My point is that I do not hear about individual songs, I do not hear people raving about individual songs–including in this thread. I do not hear from you either that you think her music is great and recommending a song as an example. (By the way, only one or two newish songs have been mentioned in this thread, one of which was Partition, and I just tried listening to that. Ouch, awful. In my opinion, yes. BTW, black music is a huge chunk of what I’ve listened to my whole life, including newer stuff. I have enjoyed a bunch of Rihanna’s songs, and yes, I agree with other posters here that she is a much better artist than Bey.)
I sort of agree, but less all-encompassing popularity means I think less respect from individuals, right? And below a certain critical mass, I think there is a qualitative difference in the level of respect, admiration, love, legendary-ness that one can attain. Even if critics are still selling their respect as they always have (I don’t mean being bribed, but ultimately they are selling the concept that their opinion is special. I think with the rise of Amazon reviews and many other channels for the masses to speak their minds, critics are much less important and cared about than they used to be…)
I think it goes without saying that that is my opinion. And I don’t denigrate Black culture. I am into black culture. Keep in mind I am not saying that Bey is talentless or has never produced good work. I am just saying that she is quite bland for the level of fame and sales she has as a musician. IMHO.
I can’t name any Russel titles though I am sure I have seen some. I can name some Medea titles or at least approximations, even though I have seen none. A better example would be Spike Lee. I’ve seen a bunch.
I am sympathetic about all you say about black talent in Hollywood. I think some of the best leading ladies have been/are black and it’s shameful how few choice roles they have receive: Jada Pinkett, Gabrielle Union, Nia Long, Thandy Newton… I like watching black movies because they gave a different take on pop culture in America, often avoid the same ruts other Hollywood movies get in, and you get to see the talent that is not allowed to shine in big-budget productions. So, I won’t go into a speech about being a virtuous white guy, but I don’t think I fit the template you’re working from.
FWIW, I have also read some articles and gone to Allmusic.com and looked at some of the notes on Bey’s albums to see what the hype and excitement of the critics is about. Even there, it is a bit hard to tell. The enthusiasm with respect to her recent work seems a bit formless (and it isn’t universal, either).
(I know you weren’t talking to me, but…)
I certainly don’t think Kanye is talentless, and I am not a hater. Kardashian is very good at looking good (and I don’t mean that sarcastically–she has great fashion sense, etc.), and she is outstanding at playing the media. I think she is performing for the benefit of people’s most lowbrow and primitive urges, however. She’s trashy not so much for the sextape but for being a star of clickbait online content and its equivalent in other media. And it works and adds to her already absurd wealth. She’s far from talentless, but neither is a safecracker. Kanye married her because 1) she’s frickin’ hot and 2) he’s insecure about his own fame and place in the mediasphere.
I mentioned Kim (but not Kanye) because she and Bey are famous in a similar way right now. I purposely pointed out that I don’t think Bey is trashy, however (aside from some trashy lyrics, but again I wasn’t really referring to sexual morals with Kim).
Why do you assume I assume that? I don’t. I was just saying that I agree with what I thought the OP was saying. She’s talented, but in my opinion she isn’t the queen of the pop/R&B world that some make her out to be. I don’t understand how she has become the center of their universe, but I admit I’ve never had an in-depth discussion of this with them and don’t care to.
p.s. By “some,” I meant many of the white people I’ve been hanging around lately. My black friends and colleagues are all 40-50 years old and have really never mentioned her music, so to me this isn’t at all a racial thing.
Fair enough. I don’t mean to attack you or anything. I just kinda feel like when most people are confronted with the reality of something relatively factual (eg. Beyonce being a “megastar”), the more logical response in my mind would be to ask what they are not seeing as opposed to intimating it’s an issue with everyone else.
Not really, but it’s really a difficult comparison given the changing landscape.
I think planetcory said it perfectly, so I will quote him/her:
QFT.
Why? Listening to their music is not an endorsement of everything they have done or everything they say. This is a guy who by virtue of his position has to play nice with vile dictators who actually murder people by the thousands, and you object to him listening to a less than pure musician?
Oh, I am sure many don’t like rap music. That to me is not really the issue. This place has a real elitist/classist attitude towards a lot of stuff, but Black people/issues/culture get it far worse IMO. Rarely do a couple months go by without a “are Black people stupid” thread, or some other topic of debate that is transparently racist. Right now, we have at least two gems of this sort:
Why do black pupils in the US underachieve academically when one factors out poverty?
Steophan: ‘“Blacks are subhuman” is either true or false, and by itself has no moral component’
But do you think people in general aren’t doing that? Because there is a good amount of objective evidence that they are; it’s just that those people don’t interact with you.
Why is think it would be largely fruitless and completely unnecessary give a simple Google search will tell you all of her hits. And for the record, I am not a HUGE Beyonce fan, but I don’t think my opinions on her or her music make her less worthy or a lesser star.
Really? “Ouch, awful”? Did listening physically hurt you? Do you really think the song is objectively awful? I don’t know if you are being playful, but your reaction seems hyperbolic and myopic. Almost no music that achieves that level of mainstream success is worthy of such a reaction from someone who can competently evaluate music.
Not really, no.
But don’t you think it’s more likely that you are not seeing something than your opinion being “accurate”.
Fair enough. I obviously don’t know you and didn’t mean to make assumptions about your character, so my apologies.
But they are not famous in the same ways at all. That was my primary point.
I think I have to echo the incredulity of “ouch, awful” as the response to “Partition”. Yes, YMMV, but it just strains belief that someone would consider it an ‘ouch’ song to listen to. It doesn’t have harsh electronica, or over twangy singing. Yes, I’m slightly biased as I think its a fantastic song, but I guess I’ve have a similar reaction to if someone said “ouch, awful” to a suggestion to listen to the Beatles’ “Let it Be” - Really?
Uh whatnow? She married Jay-Z. He did not purchase her. This is not an Ike and Tina situation - I am pretty sure she has complete control over her career.
I just watched the “Partition” video for the first time. She is as hot as fuck. And I am a very straight woman. Bey gets more beautiful every video.
And why the hell do men on this board keep insisting that Beyonce is “warbling”? I’ve never, ever heard anyone describe a man to be “warbling.” Dave Matthews actually warbles. So does Neil Young. But around here it’s only the skanky ass hoes who do it at the bequest of their pimp husbands.
Yeah, watched the whole thing. I thought it was boring but at 2:31 on youtube the song gets better as well as the video. It was like something from a Tinto Brass film. Was it a homage? Anyway, I like her vocals better when she’s carrying a tune, but the talking/rapping not so much.
Just played Rihanna’s Russian Roulette song. I dunno, in comparison it seems like Beyonce’s music just lacks…maybe passion or sincerity? Conviction? Diamonds in the Sky is another song that I really like by Rihanna.
I’m not trying to bad mouth Beyonce’s achievements or success. For me though none of the songs I heard by her make me want to go out and buy her album, or get the song via iTunes.
:dubious:
I just listened to it. I wouldn’t say it’s painful, but a second listen still isn’t likely. If the listener doesn’t like repetitive beats, that song would pretty much be torture. “Let it Be” isn’t going to merit anything but a radio station change in my world, either, FWIW.
And to those who think that other’s opinions of Beyonce can’t be due to her music: you’re going to have to convince me. People have different opinions of music, and it doesn’t have to have its roots in sexism, class-ism or racism. I think that her music is just as boring as just about every White/Black/Female/Male/Chipmunk mega-star before her, and their continued success still kind of confuses me.
Mysterious? I’ve seen more nude selfie shots of Rihanna online than the twitter streams of real porn stars, never mind stuff like the Lui layout…
I would not categorize her as “mysterious” at all. “Blatant” would be more accurate.
A female singer is getting sexually explicit. It’s obviously not her decision. And she should be ashamed for liking sex and singing about it. She’s not deserving of her fame and superstar reputation.
Nothing sexist about any of this.
And I think brickbacon is right on the money with his (her?) observations about the way black culture is treated here.
Personally, I don’t like Beyonce because she plagiarizes* a lot* for her music videos and passes it off as “inspiration”, but I’d say it’s a bit silly to say her actual songs don’t get any attention. Jezebel, for instance, just about exploded over her surprise album.