I don't get/believe in Beyonce as "megastar"

[brickbacon]

@Aeschines

I made my standard pretty clear from the outset: I see Bey’s fame via the media but I don’t hear anywhere as much enthusiasm about specific songs or really the music in general as I do concerning other artists.

But again, it’s not because it isn’t there, it’s because you haven’t seen it. Two completely different things. Once again, she had a number one hit 3 months ago, and numerous other hits around that time from an album that dropped without notice. It is almost solely because of the media and word of mouth that her album was a commercial success, so to imply it doesn’t exist because you don’t hear it is foolish.

@Aeschines

I don’t interact with either Bey fans or Taylor Swift fans.

Which is your right, but don’t you think that would largely explain how you have missed people discussing her?

@Aeschines

I did know that she had hits. The way her hits are celebrated or not seems qualitatively different than those of other artists.

Again, no it’s not really.

@Aeschines

To give another example from the world of mediocre white music, One Direction has had some genuinely catchy “event” songs, but I listened to a few from their last album, and they were just terrible. But that album sold in mega-volume, and it had hits. But the hits weren’t “out there” really exciting people in the same way as those from their earlier album(s). But they had a lot of momentum and a lot of teenage girls going crazy over them still. (This is all my perception, mind you.)

Your perception does not reflect reality.

@Aeschines

But she’s not putting out albums of “Thriller”-level quality where all of the songs really pop and they are all distinctive enough to remember. Sure, I know albums of that quality level are rare, but that is what a mega-star like Michael Jackson could do.

So your bar is arguably the biggest star of the modern era’s biggest album? I know you partially acknowledge this, but MJ himself only had one Thriller. IIRC, it is still the greatest selling album of all time. Even the Beatles didn’t sell like he Thriller did.

@Aeschines

“Partition” just seems half-assed and half-hearted. It is “ouch, awful” to me in a contextual sense.

I still cannot see this react as anything but nonsensical hyperbole. Not so much that I think everyone should like it, but to characterize your reaction as such seems ridiculous.

@Aeschines

C’mon, that’s so wrong you can’t believe it. Ever hear of a song called “We Built This City on Rock and Roll”? Ever hear of Phil Collins? If you lived through the 80s, you know that terrible, terrible music can reach the top of the charts. And I’m not even saying that Bey’s music is terrible on the whole. It just sounds like insincere R&B retreads to me.

Neither of those songs are so discordant and so terrible as to elicit that sort of reaction from me.

@Aeschines

I think there are many similarities:

1. Both sell how hot they are.
2. Both sell their power-couple-dom.
3. Both sell their in-the-media-ness to maintain and gain in-the-media-ness (both are not just “famous for being famous,” but that is one important “module” of their current fame).
4. Both sell themselves as fashion brands, etc. Personality as product and brand.
5. Both have a similar bland, nondescript ways of talking to the media. They are very neutral and tend to speak in platitudes. It is a kind of practiced vacuity. (Kanye is the very opposite, which makes him a nice media partner for Kim.)

The origins of their fame and their respective “products” were originally different, but right now they seem quite similar.

And they both have vaginas and breath air too…

The above is such a vague and arguable list that it makes the comparison completely invalid. I have never heard anyone compare the two aside from you. In fact, they are usually compared to highlight their dissimilarities.

@leftfield6

What she is not, is musically talented.

It’s always nice when someone comes along to prove my point.

@leftfield6

Other stars who I think, humble opinion, have near zero musical talent, but are considered huge stars:

Kanye
Miley
Lady Gaga
Bieber
Pitbull
Marron 5
Niki Minaj
Rihanna
Taylor Swift
Usher
Not sure he is considered huge, but Pharrel

Old School Overrated:
Grateful Dead
Sting
Prince

If there ever was a disqualifying statement, this is it. Honestly, why does it seem to hurt you to admit that Lady Gaga and Justin Bieber are talented? Do you honesty think Pharrell has NO musical talent? Really?

@jsgoddess

I know better than a critic what I like. I don’t know better than a critic what is good. Critics can be wrong, but I think they as a whole are more likely to be right than I am about what is good.

Well said.

[DrDeth]

@WordMan

Again: it is cool that you “like Prince even if he is a poopie-head with Weird Al” - Heck, I think Prince is a total jerk for destroying Captain Kirk’s guitar (the guitarist from the Roots, Jimmy Fallon’s house band, and a great band all around; Prince borrowed it for a performance and tossed it up a the end and let it hit the ground and break.)

But that doesn’t change the fact that Prince is one of the best musicians of the past 50 years. Heck, Captain Kirk shrugged his shoulders and said “What am I gonna do? He’s Prince - the baddest cat around.”

Ok, I think we’re on the same page, anyway.

Altho oddly, Art of Noise’s cover of the Prince hit “Kiss” , featuring Tom Jones on vocals was better than Princes original version.

[DrDeth]

@leftfield6

Old School Overrated:
Grateful Dead

If you listen to a album, maybe. But if you went to a Dead concert, you wouldnt think so. Best concert band ever.

[brickbacon]

@leftfield6

No argument that tastes vary, thus my IMHO qualifier, but, megastar does not equal musical talent.

It pretty much does. No, they are not neatly overlapping circles, but the reality is that in a mature business with as much money, time, and energy invested in creating the conditions for stardom and mega-stardom, the chance of being a megastar with less that above average talent is almost zero. Being a megastar in music is like being a star basketball player or an huge megastar actor. You don’t get to that level without some talent because nobody is gonna carry all that water for you. Megastars aren’t one off talents with a huge album. They are people who huge corporations bet tens or hundreds of millions of dollars on. In those conditions, EVERYONE gets exposed for who they are, and the hacks don’t survive. So while being a megastar doesn’t mean you are the MOST talented person in the business, it does mean you are likely very talented in producing music people like to hear, which is pretty much the defining characteristic of having musical talent.

@leftfield6

It’s an opinion, I don’t have to back it up. But, to be fair, i was unaware of his “producer” work.

Hilarious. So you don’t know the most well known and highly regarding things he does, yet you felt qualified and compelled to comment?

@leftfield6

And honestly, don’t care.

Makes sense to double down on your outrageous claim.

[Aeschines]

@brickbacon

But again, it’s not because it isn’t there, it’s because you haven’t seen it. Two completely different things. Once again, she had a number one hit 3 months ago, and numerous other hits around that time from an album that dropped without notice. It is almost solely because of the media and word of mouth that her album was a commercial success, so to imply it doesn’t exist because you don’t hear it is foolish.

Lots of mini straw men, and the same ones keep popping up. Did you know that Lady Gaga’s and Tony Bennet’s album Cheek to Cheek was a #1 album? I was surprised to learn that recently. I saw it in Starbucks. But did it really seem that big? Not through the channels by which I receive information. You can assert, “You just didn’t know how big it was!”

You are saying that I am wrong about Bey’s popularity being different from Taylor Swift’s. I could be wrong, but you simply seem to be asserting that I am wrong without really making the case. Other people here seem to agree with me. But who knows. I did come into this thread with a research paper on the matter in hand.

I still cannot see this react as anything but nonsensical hyperbole. Not so much that I think everyone should like it, but to characterize your reaction as such seems ridiculous.

What you just said is hyperbole. Sometimes people really don’t like songs.

Neither of those songs are so discordant and so terrible as to elicit that sort of reaction from me.

I only mentioned one song, “We Built This City,” which according to Wikipedia has been cited as one of the worst popular songs of the 80s:

We Built This City

The above is such a vague and arguable list that it makes the comparison completely invalid. I have never heard anyone compare the two aside from you. In fact, they are usually compared to highlight their dissimilarities.

I think they are quite dissimilar as human beings. I’m not trying to say anything too brilliant. They are both big media personalities like many others who work the media as their jobs instead of just working a particular skill and passively letting the media report on them. For example, Meryl Streep just acts, basically, and gets reported on for doing that. She isn’t trying to work the media as her job.

It pretty much does. No, they are not neatly overlapping circles, but the reality is that in a mature business with as much money, time, and energy invested in creating the conditions for stardom and mega-stardom, the chance of being a megastar with less that above average talent is almost zero.

This is superficially true, I think. The talent is not always the craft itself. Justin Bieber had (I’ll use past tense, as he seems done, though of course someone will eventually sell a “comeback”) good lucks and the guts and ability to get up on a stage and sing before thousands or millions. He had some musical talent but not an usual amount. But he had what it took to be a boy idol and sell in the marketplace. Yes, he had talent, but he is not a great musician.

Someone mentioned Prince. I recognize his talent, but his music has never done much for me. Sometimes that happens too.

[Aeschines]

@brickbacon

Makes sense to double down on your outrageous claim.

I hadn’t known he was one of the Neptunes either.

I heard Pharell described (by a critic!) as a “bad good singer” (in contrast to good bad singers like Neil Young, also said the critic). I think that hits the nail on the head with him. When I hear the song “Get Lucky,” I do not feel in sympathy with the “main character” and find the performance grating, but I can’t say it’s “bad” on the surface.

[scabpicker]

@jsgoddess

Honestly, this just sounds like someone who hasn’t read enough bad poetry.

Honestly, this sounds like someone who doesn’t have any education in art history or criticism. If the critics were right, and art was objective: the Paris Salon would still be on top, Impressionism would have never flourished, and itself in turn replaced by artists that weren’t satisfied with it.

@ISiddiqui

And I think that’s a problematic position. If all art is merely subjective, why argue about it at all? Just say, “that’s just your opinion, man” and walk away.

You can always talk about why you like something to try to convince someone why you think a work is good. You just have to temper that with the knowledge that if your laundry list isn’t convincing, they can say “that’s just your opinion, man” and walk away. Art has the provability of religion, and if your criticism isn’t convincing there’s no god to smite the unbelievers and no natural laws for them to violate.

That art is subjective is what makes it hard to do well - there are no absolute answers. The same is true of criticism, because it depends on said subjective art.

[seal_cleaner]

I don’t understand her popularity, but that’s nothing against her. I don’t enjoy jazz either. But, attractive?

[leftfield6]

Alright. I’ll admit I came across more than a little curmudgeonly with my comments earlier. I should have said that I don’t find the artists in my list appealing and left it at that.

And I should have been more clear with my comments on ‘no talent’. Of course everyone on my list has some talent. I do feel that, to my ear, the amount of talent they have is not proportional with their megastar status.

[Lukeinva]

She is no Aretha Franklin… or Diana Ross… or Chaka Kahn.

[WordMan]

brickbacon - do I get NO love as an old white guy trying to support your position?!

Aeschines - the Neptunes - Pharrell and his high school bud, Chad Hugo - were responsible for so many huge hits its not even funny. If you don’t know that, well, it’s kinda important.

ETA: Next thing you’re going to tell me is that you don’t know who the **Smeezingtons **are. (Hint: Bruno Mars’ songwriting team. Have also written lots of hits.)

[Aeschines]

@WordMan

Aeschines - the Neptunes - Pharrell and his high school bud, Chad Hugo - were responsible for so many huge hits its not even funny. If you don’t know that, well, it’s kinda important.

I had heard of the Neptunes. Didn’t know their names, though.

ETA: Next thing you’re going to tell me is that you don’t know who the **Smeezingtons **are. (Hint: Bruno Mars’ songwriting team. Have also written lots of hits.)

You and your knowledge have earned… a Gold Star!

[Guinastasia]

@ZipperJJ

Don’t know, don’t care. Writing your own songs does not a megastar make.

Good point – and if you think about it, some people would be better off not writing their own songs.

I’m not a fan of her music (not my style), but the woman has one hell of a voice. Everyone bitched about her using a pre-recorded track at the inauguration, when she sang the national anthem. Despite the fact that she was singing along with her own fucking voice. She wanted to make sure she sounded absolutely perfect, which she did. It may have been pre-recorded, but it sounded beautiful, if you ask me. I also think she has shown some stunning fashion sense in the past. (I’m a clothes freak, so sue me)

Yes, lots of crap out there is popular – there’s no accounting for taste. But I wouldn’t say Beyonce is crap.
brickbacon, you have lost all credibility by declaring that Bieber is talented.

[WordMan]

@Aeschines

You and your knowledge have earned… a Gold Star!

Gosh, condescending much? Any time you want to discuss music, let me know.
Look, I don’t know you but assume you are a fellow Old White Guy. I have tried to help you understand that…you clearly haven’t invested any time in learning about what you are commenting on.

It’s fun to pop off with big dismissive statements: “that Beyoncé…I have decided she is not talented!” But all you are doing is pointing out how clueless you are to what is happening today. Please hear me: I am NOT saying you are wrong and that Beyoncé is AMAZING. I am saying that your critique of her comes across as clueless and like someone who has clearly not invested the time.

[brickbacon]

@Aeschines

Lots of mini straw men, and the same ones keep popping up. Did you know that Lady Gaga’s and Tony Bennet’s album Cheek to Cheek was a #1 album?

Yes, I knew it was a big album. I believe they were on 60 minutes when the album came out.

@Aeschines

I was surprised to learn that recently. I saw it in Starbucks. But did it really seem that big? Not through the channels by which I receive information. You can assert, “You just didn’t know how big it was!”

And I think I would be correct in saying that. Why do you keep assuming because you didn’t see or hear about it means it wasn’t treated as a big deal?

@Aeschines

You are saying that I am wrong about Bey’s popularity being different from Taylor Swift’s. I could be wrong, but you simply seem to be asserting that I am wrong without really making the case.

They are both huge mega stars. It’s not really a contest and my goal isn’t to sell you on Beyonce being a huge, huge star. She is objectively by almost every measure.

@Aeschines

Other people here seem to agree with me. But who knows. I did come into this thread with a research paper on the matter in hand.

Oh you mean the people arguing Prince is overrated and not knowing Pharrell was a producer or the ones intimating Beyonce is a slut?

@Aeschines

What you just said is hyperbole. Sometimes people really don’t like songs.

And most adults react by realizing it’s not their cup of tea and not pretending to have a visceral reaction to a well regarded song.

@Aeschines

I only mentioned one song, “We Built This City,” which according to Wikipedia has been cited as one of the worst popular songs of the 80s

Who cares? I wasn’t saying it was a good song. Merely that your reaction was melodramatic.

@Aeschines

They are both big media personalities like many others who work the media as their jobs instead of just working a particular skill and passively letting the media report on them. For example, Meryl Streep just acts, basically, and gets reported on for doing that. She isn’t trying to work the media as her job.

Are you kidding? Every celebrity has to do PR (active and passive). It’s just that most actors only have to do PR for upcoming projects. Your point just made zero sense. Beyonce gets reported on because she is insanely famous; just like Taylor Swift, Katy Perry, Rihanna, and others.

@Aeschines

This is superficially true, I think. The talent is not always the craft itself. Justin Bieber had (I’ll use past tense, as he seems done, though of course someone will eventually sell a “comeback”)

He has an album coming out this year. Don’t you think when basic facts like this escape you that maybe you shouldn’t be commenting on those aspects?

@Aeschines

good lucks and the guts and ability to get up on a stage and sing before thousands or millions. He had some musical talent but not an usual amount. But he had what it took to be a boy idol and sell in the marketplace. Yes, he had talent, but he is not a great musician.

He is a great musician; not the greatest, but certainly pretty great given his career . The fact is you don’t get that lucky in general. There are hundreds of people who are better looking and more capable of being a boy idol. The reason it’s him and not those people is in large part because he is very talented.

@Aeschines

I hadn’t known he was one of the Neptunes either.

Thankfully, you didn’t have the gall to bring him up apropos of nothing to denigrate his talents.

@seal_cleaner

I don’t understand her popularity, but that’s nothing against her. I don’t enjoy jazz either. But, attractive?

Yes, very attractive. Doesn’t it get tiresome for you to deny the obvious?

@leftfield6

And I should have been more clear with my comments on ‘no talent’. Of course everyone on my list has some talent. I do feel that, to my ear, the amount of talent they have is not proportional with their megastar status.

What in life is proportional? Is Bill Gates’ wealth proportional to his talents? Probably not, but that is less reflective of him than the potential for scalability in his industry.

[brickbacon]

@WordMan

brickbacon - do I get NO love as an old white guy trying to support your position?!

My apologies for ignoring those like you in this thread who have tried to inject some sanity into this discussion.

@Guinastasia

brickbacon, you have lost all credibility by declaring that Bieber is talented.

He is very talented. Do I like his music? Not particularly, but the reality is he is a very talented guy. Again, you don’t get to that level without a great deal of talent. You may not need all time great vocal skills and talent, but you basically have to be able to distinguish yourself from so many people that it basically demonstrates your superlative talents relative to others. The guy plays multiple instruments, has a good voice and is a great performer. To say he is not very talented is just denying the obvious.

[Aeschines]

@WordMan

Gosh, condescending much? Any time you want to discuss music, let me know.

Lol, you were the one who assumed I didn’t know a specific fact. Guess what? You know a lot of things I don’t, and vice versa.

It’s fun to pop off with big dismissive statements: “that Beyoncé…I have decided she is not talented!”

Rolleyes. I ain’t never said that.

But all you are doing is pointing out how clueless you are to what is happening today.

The OP is predicated on my saying that my knowledge of pop culture comes to me through certain limited channels. I guess that’s too subtle a setup for some people to work with.

[WordMan]

@Aeschines

The OP is predicated on my saying that my knowledge of pop culture comes to me through certain limited channels. I guess that’s too subtle a setup for some people to work with.

Actually, no: it dismisses you and your opinion. You can’t make blanket statements like “I have decided that Beyoncé is not a big deal” with BIG, LONG explanations as to why you feel that way, and then say you are limited.

If you are, in fact, limited - and given your comments, I totally accept that judgment of yours - then ask a question, shut up, and listen to what people who actually know what is happening provide their input.

And, yes, I am reporting my own post for telling you shut up. But really, it needed to be said, because you are truly clueless.

[Guinastasia]

@brickbacon

Again, you don’t get to that level without a great deal of talent.

Two words: Vanilla Ice.

[Aeschines]

@WordMan

And, yes, I am reporting my own post for telling you shut up. But really, it needed to be said, because you are truly clueless.

I’m not taking it personally. You just seem in the mood to be irate about something.