OK, so I don’t think we’re arguing about anything then, so far as I can tell.
Nope, I don’t think we are.
You might “know” that for your self (for certain values of “know”), but you certainly don’t know that for your friends. Meat eating is a central characteristic in human evolution. It’s why we were able to develop large brains and thus use tools and language, and all the complex things we are able to do as a result. Now, perhaps some individuals might not crave meat as a result of certain environmental factors – and this would be particularly true for those who grew up in a completely vegetarian context, such as in India – but as a species, “craving meat” is practically a defining characteristic.
Meh, I never craved meat when I was vegetarian. Even now, I don’t really crave meat.
FWIW, Chinese Buddhist vegetarian cuisine has a long history, and isn’t particularly concerned with everyone saying “Haha! You must still want meat!” The idea behind Chinese Buddhist vegetarian cuisine is that just because you are compassionate doesn’t mean you should have to give up tastes and textures that you enjoy. Much of it is quite convincing. I’ve even had vegetarian “drumsticks” on carefully crafted fake bones.
Speaking as an omnivore, I’ve had good meat, good vegetarian fake meats, and good vegetarian dishes that didn’t even try to pretend that they were meat. As long as it’s tasty, who cares?
It certainly does look yummy, and I’m sure the dishes taste as good as they look. But many of the pictures show vegetables pretending to be meat. There’s drumsticks, and plates of what look to be chunks and shreds of chicken like traditional stir-fry and stews.
Most of the vegetarian restaurants seem to do this. It’s like they’re afraid to let the vegetables shine on their own. I’ve been to vegetarian restaurants where there isn’t an item on the menu that doesn’t feature some kind of veggie approximation of meat.
I realize that these restaurants probably have to offer some meat substitute soy gluten product. But does it have to feature in every item? If you want to promote vegetarianism, portray vegetables and fruit as wonderful in their own right. Not as methadone to meat’s heroin.
Maybe…just maybe…it’s about providing the most enjoyable food, and not about promoting an agenda.
A vegetarian restaurant, in order to survive in a meat loving world, must necessarily learn to promote vegetarianism successfully. There’s still a lot of anti-veg attitudes out there, especially in the south and midwest.
Spotted today on a pickup truck rear window - a very sober, serious-looking truck with no other junk: A small white sticker with the black letters
vaginatarian
[SIZE=2]
made me laugh…[/SIZE]
I think that part of the appeal of that particular restaurant that was given as an example is that the owner is Buddhist and is trying to get more people interested in vegetarianism, and showing that you can have many types of vegan/vegetarian meals that are still delicious and satisfying. So it’s not surprising if they have some “fake meat” dishes - not just because they’re delicious, but because you’re trying to appeal to not just people who are already vegetarians.
Also, I think you’re exaggerating that there’s fake meat in every item. I went to the restaurant’s website, and the dinner menu is here (pdf).
[ul][li]The “Starters” section has 11 items (12 if you include the combo platter), of which only 3 items are “fake meat” of some kind (e.g. “salty chicken strips”), rather than just being vegetarian (e.g. spring rolls, deep fried tofu).[/li][li]The “Soup” section has 8 kinds of soup, of which 5 have things like “soy chicken” in them.[/li][li]The “Tofu Dishes” section has 7 items, with only 1 item describing fake meat (“soy ham”), with the rest just saying that they have tofu.[/li][li]The “Vegetable Dishes” section has 15 items, with only 3 of them containing “fake meat”, and a few others containing “oyster mushroom sauce” in a dish of vegetables.[/li][li]The “Vegetarian Dishes” section is heavy on the fake meat - 23 items.[/li][*]Then there are “Rice and Noodle Dishes” - 9 items, none of which have fake meat in them.[/ul]
At least out here in CA, those would certainly indicate fake meats done by soy, etc.
I have seen fish creep into “vegetarian” areas, but that’s not such a stretch as long as it’s clearly labeled.
I think the non-veg people in this thread may also be discounting the likelihood that a larger percentage of vegetarians cook at home (especially strict vegetarians, they certainly don’t eat fast food), and the majority of the cooking at home does not include the fake meats featured at restaurants. The fake meats are a treat, and if it’s up to me, I’d rather treat myself to a restaurant’s fake meat meal than the frozen stuff from the grocery freezer.
that’s a very good point SeaDragonTattoo, you’ll want to get something you don’t cook at home. i think this is the explanation that i can grok thus far in this thread. in fact, i would love to sample strange mock meat dishes during the occasional outings in that situation.
not counting rice and noodles as they’re staples; that means a little more than half of all the items are mock meat, with every single main dish as mock meat. not an exaggeration.
Filbert and Green Bean. i’ll withdraw my opposition since i got a very good explanation from SeaDragonTattoo, but for discussion, let’s post my original reasoning anyway:
so let’s take from the above example, a vaginatarian, assuming the parallel definition as one who doesn’t do penises. so hypothetically, we have this straight guy who loves his girlfriend and does everything when they get it on. however, most sexual romps with his girlfriend consists of a lovingly prolonged session in which he would get her to wear a dildo and he would proceed to suck it.
that’s…well, to be polite, let’s just say that’s really strange.
On that menu, most of the “rice and noodles” dishes are entire main dishes/entrees - they’re not just plain rice or noodles as a side dish. And the tofu dishes, vegetable dishes, and vegetarian dishes are all main dishes on their own and are all about the same price - and only the “vegetarian dishes” section is primarily fake meat.
But like other people have said in this thread, I don’t think it makes someone any “less” of a vegetarian/vegan if they sometimes (or even often) have “mock meat” dishes. No matter what a person’s reason is for being a vegetarian - whether it’s for animal cruelty reasons, or health, or environmental benefits - none of them are undermined by sometimes eating vegetables that look somewhat similar to meat. Why would this ever be a concern? What’s the harm or downside?
Skewered and marinated satay made out of seitan is delicious whether you call it “mock chicken” or just seitan. And given that the majority of our culture are either meat eaters or are familiar with meat dishes, giving a vegetarian dish a “meaty” name can be just a convenient shorthand to let people know what kind of dish they’ll be getting if they’re ordering something they haven’t tried before. Most vegetarians that I know only have “fake meat” dishes occasionally. If they’re going to a cookout they’ll have a veggie hotdog or a veggie burger. But personally (as a meat eater), I’ll sometimes make homemade lentil veggie burgers or have a grilled portobello “burger” just because they taste good - not because it’s similar to a hamburger.
A better analogy would be lesbians using dildos. We don’t all use them, certainly not every day, but they can be fun because they reach certain pleasure spots in different ways than hands do.
I suppose some people think that this means lesbians are secretly craving cock, and I know some people think it means we’re not “real” lesbians, but they’re wrong. Same with vegetarians who happen to want protein as well as veggies, and sometimes want it in a form that’s similar to what they grew up with. Is that really so strange?
underline mine. then we’re in agreement all along. there’s no harm or downside, i had found it remarkable is all.
my original objection was that the majority of vegetarian offerings were mock meat, evinced by the fact that even the vernacular used equate “mock meat” with “vegetarian”. (a common example can be found at Waenara’s link. oh before i forget. isn’t it interesting that there are numerous disclaimers found in that menu that certain items do not contain wheat? that implies to me that everything else contain wheat? wouldn’t wheatarian be more appropriate? or wil wheaton be a better name?)
anyway, the hypothetical is weaker with lesbians, where the dildo would simply be an aid to the main attraction. with hetrosexuals however, both parties would be forgoing the main attraction for something else entirely.
Exactly. If your menu says, “stir fried seitan with vegetables and rice noodles”, I still have no information about what flavor profile I’m going to get. Seitan can, literally, taste like anything, depending on what you marinate it in, cook it in, brush on it, pour over it… It’s a matter of convenience to state that the seitan is “fake beef”, because then I know roughly what flavor profile I’m going to get. Sure, they could say, “Deep savory flavor rich in umami…” or something…but that could be the description for “fake duck” seitan dishes, too. Much more convenient to call it “fake beef” or “fake chicken” so I know what flavor I’m ordering.
I do wish they’d put the kind of vegetable protein on the menu, though. Seitan is off limits for my gluten intolerant kid. Tofu isn’t. TVP is…problematic, if you don’t know if it’s soy (most is) or also has wheat protein, so I won’t order her a TVP containing dish in a restaurant that doesn’t know or has a language barrier. My favorite Thai restaurant has a nicely laid out menu, with a clear indication of what can be made vegetarian, what can be made vegan, mentions that they don’t use fish sauce in anything (really? a Thai restaurant without fish sauce? Really.) and most of the dishes are descriptions of the dish without reference to the protein, with a note that you can choose “Tofu/Vegetables, Imitation Meat or Meat”. I know from asking that the Imitation Meats include Imitation Chicken, Imitation Beef and Imitation Pork. But I haven’t found a server whose command of English is quite good enough to make me feel like she knows for sure the English name for what the Imitation Meats are made of. My guess is seitan, but it’s only a guess. If anyone here reads Thai and wants to glance at their Thai language menu, I’d love to know if it’s mentioned on that one.
Language barriers and cultural expectations are rough. A vegan friend and I were at a Korean spa once, and went 10 rounds with the kitchen staff over the ingredients in their “vegetarian” menu option. (Yes, single vegetarian menu option. Korean food is really heavy on meat and meat stocks.) Poor Margaret still chomped into a whole uncooked baby squid or octopus in one of her “vegetarian side dishes”. The kitchen was utterly confused by her upset. She’d asked for vegetarian, and as far as they were concerned, she’d gotten it, oceanlife and all.
Again.
Chinese fake meat is typically a part of Chinese temple cuisine, which adheres to the Buddhist principles. This includes, but is not limited to, not including meat. There are other aspects to Chinese Buddhist cuisine, but the meatlessness is the most conspicuous attribute.
This kind of food is served at temple restaurants. While monks and nuns probably eat a much simpler diet, the temple restaurants do ample business serving visitors and short-term guests. Chinese buddhist temples often have teahouses and other spaces to hang out, so it wouldn’t be unusual to, say, take your family to visit the temple and then have a nice big meal together there.
At home devout Chinese Buddhists adhere to different levels of meatlessness. It’s pretty common for families to practice vegetarianism one day a week, much like Catholics did fish on Fridays. It’s also common for families to eat Buddhist food on religious holidays, much like we eat turkey on Thanksgiving out of tradition.
Fake meat has been a part of this tradition for hundreds, if not thousands of years. It’s considered a special delicacy, and temple restaurants build their reputation around particularly convincing dishes. Chinese food culture attributes a lot of value to the shapes and textures of food, and there is a strong culture of these kinds of culinary puns, where one dish strongly references another dish. Chefs and diners take great delight in pulling off these kinds of slights of hand.
So yeah, the point is that this particular restaurant is not selling fake meat because vegetarians all secretly want to eat meat. This restaurant is selling a specific cuisine- like how a US steakhouse sells steaks or a US soul food restaurant sells soul food- that has it’s own traditions and tropes.
[quote=“Waenara, post:90, topic:651697”]
Also, I think you’re exaggerating that there’s fake meat in every item.
[QUOTE]
I didn’t mean in every item in that particular restaurant. But I have been to vegetarian restaurants that have fake meat in everything. There’s a place near here where I could not find one item on the menu that didn’t include fake meat except the drinks and desserts. I was very disappointed, and I’m not even vegetarian.