I don't understand holocaust denial

Great Debates
201

Yes, and presumably you also agree that accepting that there were no extermination camps in Germany tells you all you need to know about the quality of the Nuremberg evidence. :slight_smile:

You’ll see from my comment above that there I was quoting the interpretation of Robert Wolfe, supervisory archivist for captured German records. Wolfe is a Holocaust Believer so I’m not sure you can disregard his expertise on the basis of perceived bias.

Aside from the meaning of the word, there are a number of other issues I mentioned above which cast doubt on whether Himmler would have said that.

Given those factors, it makes sense to look at the other orders at the time - and as I noted above those plainly contradict the claims of a mass extermination programme.

To recap if there were a mass extermination programme then the following just wouldn’t happen:

[ol]
[li]On 9 December 1943, two months and five days after Himmler’s Posen speech, Richard Glücks, inspector of the concentration camps, sent a circular letter to the commanders of all camps including Auschwitz in which he stated that Jewish prisoners in urgent need of an operation could be treated in the nearest hospital, but the operation had to be performed by a Jewish doctor. Five days later the directive was modified: In case no Jewish doctor was available, a non-Jewish physician could be used as well. (Archiwum Glownej Komisji Badania Zbrodni przeciwko Narodowi Polskiemu, Warsaw, NTN, 94, p. 143.)[/li]
[li]On 27 July 1944 the administration of the Auschwitz camp compiled a statistics about the prisoners “temporarily quartered in the camp of the Hungarian Jews.” The document shows that until that date 3,138 Hungarian Jews had received medical treatment at the camp hospital. 1,426 of them had undergone surgical operation. (Gosudarstevenny Arkhiv Rossiskoj Federatsii, Moscow, 7021-108-32, p. 76.)[/li][/ol]

Then you have the awkward reality that the claimed mechanism of implementing this extermination has changed various times (“hundreds of people were killed simultaneously with electrical current”, hot steam, electricity, fire, acids, pneumatic hammers, quicklime, combat gasses, Diesel exhaust gases, Zyklon B, boiling water, blood poisoning, conveyor belt shootings).

From 1960 to 1983, the story changes. It was poison gas, but the evidence at Nuremberg about extermination centres in German camps like Dachau and Buchenwald is accepted to be fake. It happened in Poland (where US pathologists didn’t inspect of course as it was under Soviet control :slight_smile:

And over time more evidence has come to light which undermines the claims about camps in Poland. As noted above, the British Intelligence intercepted communications from Auschwitz and there were no references to gas. There were references to deaths due to typhus, shootings and hangings though. If they’re going to mention those, why not mention gas?

Perhaps, because the reality is that the only thing gas was used for was small delousing facilities to treat clothing & bedding for lice to stop the spread of typhus. Which certainly did claim huge numbers, especially as supplies and medicine were cut off towards the end of the war.

202

Well, this thread has certainly put the scientific racism ones in a whole new perspective for me…

203

Doesn’t matter who you claim to be quoting. The argument is blatantly wrong and easily refuted. The fact that you aren’t taking that to heart is an indictment of your ability to critically judge quality of evidence.

204

So no comment on the Einsatzgruppen murdering two million people, 1.3 million of them Jews in mass shootings as they followed behind the advancing German Army in the wake of Barbarossa, carrying out plans set in place before Barbarossa was launched? No explaining away the Jäger Report proudly detailing a daily breakdown of where and when his men murdered 138,272 people: 136,421 Jews (46,403 men, 55,556 women and 34,464 children), 1,064 communists, 653 mentally disabled, and 134 others? No explanations on why 33,771 Jews were murdered at Babi Yar by the Einsatzgruppen on September 29, 1941? Come on, I already gave you the IHR playbook for how to lie about it by claiming “anti-partisan” activity.

205

Would someone be so kind as to inform me when this thread gets moved to the Pit?

206

Any doubt on the worth of Chen019 have been removed.

(Yes, this thread really belongs in The Pit.)

207

The deniers as defense attorneys in a murder case:

Prosecution: In conclusion, we have 20 eyewitnesses in broad daylight who saw the defendant stab the victim over 10 times, plus the bloody coat and shirt recovered at his apartment. Oh yeah, and a written confession.

Defense: Three days before, the defendant said “I love you” to the victim, and ten days before, he paid for a doctor visit for her. Do those sound like the actions of a killer?

208

One of those people being my paternal grandfather, also the parents and several brothers and sisters of my maternal grandmother. They existed. We have their photos.

209

I think the OP understands Holocaust denial quite well, as does Chen019.

210

you can leave this here - let people with questions find it when they google - and start a thread to pit Holocaust deniers. all of them or any specific ones from this thread.

211

That’s certainly part of it. The Soviet leadership did (at least formally) disown Stalin about three years after he died, but that was 23 years after the Ukrainian famine and eight years after the last famine, so plenty of time for data to be disappeared. I think another part of it though is that the Nazis kept careful records because killing Jews was the whole point of the Holocaust, which wasn’t true for most other historical episodes of mass killing or engineered famines. They wanted to be able to show their superiors how successful they were at killing Jews.

212

Chen019 just repeats the red herrings expecting to get a different answer; nope, those points of him remain idiotic indeed.

The murder case you are using as an example needs to be tweaked to add that there were 2 victims.

In essence Richard Glücks had two tasks, exterminate the “useless” but keep the slave labor to continue with the critical war manufacturing effort. Not surprising that some jews like doctors or experienced machinists were deemed to be important even if they were jews. Glücks was also seen by most Nazis as an office bureaucrat, as in not bothering much to see if orders like that were implimented. Meaning that there was also the possibility that the order Chen019 is cluesly using as an example was not seen as aplicable to most of the ones the SS had the task to eliminate.

213

Can they not find it equally well in the Pit?

214

I suppose - but it’s already too long to wade through as it is.

I just prefer a not pit thread, that’s all. I have nothing against pitting him/them (or the whole idea) it’s just that I’d like it to be an additional thread.

my opinion: worth just what you paid to read it. :stuck_out_tongue:

215

It is not going to The BBQ Pit.

There are people out there who see nonsense like that posted by Chen019 and others who will shy away from Pit threads for various reasons and it is important to provide serious information, not colored by personal attacks, that refutes such nonsense. There are others who would regard personal attacks as “evidence” that those who argue that the Holocaust occurred cannot rely on facts and must engage in defamatory claims to make their points.
We are not going to give Chen019 or others such fig leaves behind which to hide. Invented histories of Nazi Germany will remain here, where they can be shredded with calm recitations of facts.

Anyone wishing to take issue with Chen019, personally, or who wishes to attack Holocaust deniers, generally, is welcome to open a thread in the Pit to express those sentiments.

[ /Moderating ]

216

thank you, that’s what I wasn’t smart enough to put into words. :slight_smile:

217

Lets be frank, holocaust denial is a frivolous pastime for fruitloops, and with greater education about what took place there is less danger that non-racist people will claim it was a hoax. However there is a big problem with the fact that it is often presented as a uniquely Jewish event when clearly they were only half the victims. To constantly quote the 6 million figure is scandalous as it is an insult to the other five million Gypsies, disabled, ‘communists’, don’t like the look of him, etc. who lost their lives. While this ommission is done out of ignorance, it surprises me that more is not done to stop it’s propogation. In a way it has become a holocaust denial of it’s own, and although not intentionally malicious it has effectively made it easier for anti-semitic holocaust deniers and other racist conspiracy theorists to peddle their lies and sew doubt among people.

218

Presumably you think Professor Paul Rassinier, Buchenwald inmate, was a racist fruitloop in need of “greater education”? Max Planck Institute chemist Germar Rudolf undertook cyanide testing & the results seemed to contradict claims about gas chambers. He was fired, kicked out of his PhD programme & later extradited from the US and imprisoned for 4 years. The reason it’s not able to be discussed widely is because it is probably the biggest taboo in Western society and there are severe consequences for any academic or scientist who contradicts the official line.

This analogy would work better if the written confession was obtained following 3 days of torture and the eyewitness evidence regarding another murder had later turned out to be false.

Also, you’re ignoring that aside from the orders regarding provision of medical assistance to jewish inmates, there are the actual inmate records.

According to the official story, from spring 1942 at Auschwitz all Jews unable to work were gassed upon arrival without previous registration. If this assertion were true, no names of old Jews or Jewish children would figure in the Sterbebücher of Auschwitz. But a study of these documents, which were published in printed form in 1995 (Staatliches Museum Auschwitz-Birkenau (ed.), Die Sterbebücher von Auschwitz, Saur Verlag, Munich 1995), reveals that many old Jews and Jewish children were registered at Auschwitz:

– 2 Jews over 90 years of age;

– 73 Jews from 80 to 90 years of age;

– 482 Jews from 70 to 80 years of age;

– 2,083 Jews from 60 to 70 years of age;

– 2,584 Jews from 0 to 10 years of age.

Plus there are records like this that make no sense if there was a mass extermination programme:

**On 27 July 1944 the administration of the Auschwitz camp compiled a statistics about the prisoners “temporarily quartered in the camp of the Hungarian Jews.” The document shows that until that date 3,138 Hungarian Jews had received medical treatment at the camp hospital. 1,426 of them had undergone surgical operation. **(Gosudarstevenny Arkhiv Rossiskoj Federatsii, Moscow, 7021-108-32, p. 76.)

219

It is unlikely that “greater education” would have worked. Rassinier was a bit of a different duck who started out as a Left wing iconoclast. However, his various papers and books were often filled with factual errors used to bolster his claims, making him a less than reliable witness to the Holocaust. (Beyond factual errors, he aso attempted to extrapolate events at the extermination camps from events at the work camps without actually having any experience with the extermination camps.) Political ideology is not a good basis on which to build history. It is interesting that you have invoked his name in the cause of attacking political ideology as a basis on which to write history.

I do not agree with the German laws that do criminalize discussion, but those German laws do not limit publications in the U.S., Britain, or other countries. Rudolf’s “testing” of gas chambers have been demonstrated to be nonsense, as he tested for values that would not have survived the roughly 40 years that elapsed before he began his testing.

Do you have a citation for your claim?

(And are you sure that no bait-and-switch logic has been used in your sources? For example: As the Red Army approached Auschwitz, the Nazis dynamited the execution gas chambers, but did not waste their time or energy destroying the separate delousing chambers. Holocaust deniers point to the un-reinforced doors on the delousing chambers to claim that they could not have held frantic people trying to escape while ignoring the fact that the doors on the extermination chambers were much stronger. What were the methods of “registration” and what is the actual claim that it did not occur? If the gas chambers could not instantly process the number of persons being brought in by the trainload, where is the evidence that the “overflow” people on any train were not recorded while being held for later execution?)

220

Stanislawa Leszczynska

Want to cherry pick any other facts, so you can pick out the bits you like and leave the
rest under the rug?

You know exactly what that name means, and you know exactly what i am talking about.
Oh and i believe i found you on your other website.
You are copying the same exact stuff, word for word including your misspellings.
It’s either you, or you are plagiarizing some other anti Jewish guy word for word.