Sorry. Discrimination is wrong. Discrimination is making certain generalized opinions about a wonderously varied group, and excluding for no real good reason.
Other people have mentioned this point, but I feel the need to reiterate it: replace “homosexual” with “black,” “divorced,” or “German,” and there would be no fucking debate over whether the bsa’s policies were right or wrong.
Don’t you dare!! If you don’t mind me being blunt, the Boy Scouts may have their flaws, but they do rely heavily, however indirectly and quietly, on parental support. The BSA is one of the finest organizations around and while you have the choice to exclude, they have far more benefits than requirements. Every organization goes through a metamorphosis, and this is their time. Regardless of what your son may or may not go through, he will benefit in some way through the BSA. Don’t let this one media story skew your vision of a solid institution. . .
Tripler
Nother Eagle Scout here ('82). Haven’t reviewed the entire topic, so forgive me if I’m redundant.
First of all, while I don’t agree with the decision BSA has made, I can understand the reasoning that led them to that decision. I believe that BSA’s decision is driven less by their homophobia than by their perception of homophobia on the part of potential members’ parents (i.e. Ma and Pa won’t let Junior join the Scouts if they think we’ve got gay Scoutmasters.) I think they made the wrong call and are paying the consequences.
In my experience, there was a vast difference between professional and amateur Scouters. The guys who made their living administering Scouting on the District or National level were almost invariably jerks. Amongst the amateur Scouters, jerks were found in proportions comparable to the rest of the population and excellent people were abundant.
Interestingly enough, I received a postcard from the BSA asking me to write my legislator, mayor, pastor, board of directors of the United Way, dog catcher and neighbors dentist asking them to support the BSA. Didn’t do it and don’t intend to. I still think Scouting is a wonderful thing (and if I had sons instead of daughters I’d encourage them to participate) but I can’t support them on this one.
Robinh: do you have documentation that scouts have been treated this way? If so, I’d like to see it. I hadn’t heard that, and it truly disturbs me.
Yeah, and lets bring back slavery too. And witch burnings, I miss the hell out of them witch burnings. And get rid of them Jews too. And all you foreigners better learn to speak english just like the damned Injuns did when they got here.
This country ain’t dominated by christianity or christian values. Why if it were then gays wouldn’t be able to marry, drugs would be illegal, we would have all kinds of sodomy laws and money would say things about trusting god.
Believing that queers are perverts isn’t bigotry, it’s just a belief that a group of people who are different than you are are less entitled to respect and equal treatment. And if thats bigotry well then I just don’t know what to think.
You see, it’s ok for me to disrespect you because you have to tolerate me. Tolerance is about allowing me to keep gays and atheists out of private organizations, and tolerance is also about making sure that queers and atheists who pay taxed indirectly contribute to those organizations. That is tolerance.
Pardon me while I go load my shotgun, drink a PBR and wear a sheet while pouring kerosine on a cross.
Yeah, and you know what happens when them gays get jobs in public schools? The damn gay-agenda-power-monopoly starts the creep into our little kids heads because like you said, older kids are going to tell them about being gay. So I guess what you are saying is not only should gays be kept out of the Scouts but we better keep them out of out schools too.
Bravo! Very brave stance. I got an an extra sheet if you need one. Help me get this cross up and lit and we can have a beer.
One of my classmates in college had come out of the closet as an Eagle Scout in the early '90s. He described things pretty much as robinh said.
Quit whining, I’ll be over in San Diego soon enough, and you’ll get all the tricks you want. 
(Just couldn’t pass that up, wanted to, but it was just too damn clever)
Now on the the, uh, meat of the argument, and hopefully I can escape this post still appearing straight.
I’ll make sure to call you when I feel my responsibilities are being infringed. Hell, if it would make you feel better, I’d be perfectly willing to let you infringe my responsibility for paying the rent this month. Meanwhile, I don’t see how responsibilities are involved in allowing or not allowing men who are attracted to other men to be Scout leaders.
Because I’m right. Before Copernicus, it was part of the code of the Catholic Church that the sun orbited the earth. When they realized that was wrong, they changed their code (eventually). While I agree that they have every right to proclaim the earth to be at the center of the universe, I will do my best to point out the foolishness of the belief. Same situation with the Scouts and homosexuality.
I fail to see the logic here. I get the mental image of the following exchange:
young kid: “Why does our Scout leader like to listen to Broadway musicals so much?”
older kid: “That’s because he likes to stick his dick in other guys’ asses.”
:rolleyes:
Oh, and btw, I am an assistant scoutmaster for my Boy Scout troop, which I have been involved with for over ten years (I probably shouldn’t tell them I don’t believe in God). And now I’m in the Navy ROTC. Apparently I am drawn to the few groups left that actively discriminate against homosexuals.
(Sounds of loud clapping)
Zen, that was a wonderful job of diving off the deep end! What’s your encore, playing Russian roulette with an automatic?
waterJ2 “Because I’m right” ? Oh please. As for responsibility, I wasn’t talking about your mortgage; Ive got one too. I was speaking on much broader terms, about service to this country, and community. Far too many people are in the ‘gimme’ mindset, and are takers. Your failure to understand that point just underscores what I meant.
Now, as far as what I said about bending to rules, I am not hypocritical here; if the BSA were a homosexual organization, and it was straights throwing a tantrum, my stance would be the same; if you don’t like the organizations principles, then go elsewhere; it’s a free country. Just don’t construe that freedom to mean you can change whole groups or otherwise discriminate (and yes, it’s discrimination) against them just because you don’t like what they stand for. Discrimination takes many forms, and it’s not only the people of colour and homosexuals who feel it. F’rinstance, it’s PC to slam white Christians, but woe betide the Christian who slams a minority. And try to move up the business/social ladder in Utah if you don’t have a Ward number. I could go on.
If you go up and read one of my earlier posts again, you’ll see that I said I disagree with the orientation, not the person. I do not agree with Esprix; I likely never will. But if he were broken down beside the road, or in any other jam that I could help him with, I would. And that, my friend, is a subtle and important distinction between me and a hate group. I have never nor will I ever advocate gay bashing. As for scouts being stripped of their awards and booted, I don’t agree with that either, although I support the BSA’s right to do that, as per their oath.
One of the neatest things about this country, and for which I spent a career defending it, is the right to disagree with each other, but once the issue is settled, it’s time to shut up and colour.
He also told the adulteress to “go, and sin no more”, after stopping the crowd from stoning her to death. What’s your point?
(Aside: If the BSA had said “We’re a private organization; therefore we can exclude black people,” would they have any members right now?)-Vestal Blue
When I was a lad, I joined the Cub Scouts and then moved up to the Boy Scouts. I had a friend, Thomas, who was interested in joining. Thomas was black. The scoutmaster hemmed and hawed and finally said that HE didn’t have a problem, really, but the members of the church in whose basement we met would not like having a black boy on the premises. I told him that was wrong and I quit the troop.
Tell me, Vestal Blue, was the scoutmaster right or wrong? Since the BSA has the right to exclude gays, did they have the right to exclude my friend? If not, what’s the difference?
One-time Eagle scout here. I find it hilarious!
You see, I left scouting when the Scoutmaster (the adult leader), who was one of those gung-ho, male-bonding, gonna-make-boys-into-men types, questioned my certification on the Mile Swim because my mom (a Red Cross lifeguard and one of those women who could circumnavigate Long Island given enough time) did the certifying. He didn’t question it because of any imputed bias, but rather objected to me hanging onto apron strings when a proper boy scout oughta be seeking out his experiences with MEN!! not still clinging to their mommies like this was Cub Scouts or something. Furthermore, he added, I should not be seeking out tutors who were qualified to certify me for various merit badges on my OWN, oh no, the proper way was for the scouts in his troup en masse to attend mass-production merit badge seminars so we would all get the same badges and get them simultaneously as a big happy boyscout grouptroup, and he wasn’t going to honor any more individual initiatives, so I could either start being ONE OF DA BOYS or get the hell out.
I got, after informing him that it was the first consecutive block of more than an hour that I’d spent with my mom one-on-one in years, and it’s nice to spend some time with your mom now and then.
Hey Esprix, what ought folks like him to be called? On the one hand, they emit all this horrified worry about effeminacy as if, like cooties, it could be caught from spending time with girls and women, and in general folks tend to associate that no-sissies stuff with homophobia…on the other hand, all this mentogetherness buddybuddy boysboyswonderfulboys rahrah stuff is…I don’t know, homosocial in a fervent way even if there’s nothing sexual about it.
Palandine, I agree that the Boy Scouts are not “right-wing,” but certainly their actions and policies give an indication that they are more of a religious organization than they portray themselves as (at least, they do for me and Eve).
justwannano, as has been pointed out, being gay is not “all about sex.” Furthermore, any scout leader, gay or straight, who “brings sex into the picture” should be terminated with prejudice. The simple fact of the matter is that what the Boy Scouts are teaching boys has nothing to do with whether or not the one doing the instructing is gay or straight or blue-eyed or left-handed.
Yup, and the USSC supported them in that regard.
It sounds to me that the NY school system is holding the BSA to its own responsibilities, no?
In a perfect world, perhaps, but the prevailing doctrines of mainstream Christian denominations in this country are, indeed, tacitly and/or vehemently hurtful to gay men and lesbians, and the fact that the BSA supports such policies (plus the whole Atheist thing) tends to lend itself to the stance that, yes, it is a Christian-oriented organization. And, of course, they have every right to be one.
If they were a public accommodation, which was the original argument against their anti-gay stance, they cannot stand against existing laws (i.e., laws against discrimination). However, since they’ve been ruled a private organization, they can, in effect, have whatever policies they wish. That does not mean, however, that people aren’t going to change their attitudes accordingly if they don’t agree with this group, and it certainly doesn’t mean that the public should go on accommodating them, which is why, it seems, the NY school district took its particular action.
Absolutely, and I applaud your activism on behalf of your children. I hope in your zeal you are not misguided enough to think that every gay person is somehow a threat to your children, since certainly they are not, and I also hope you apply that same zeal to seeking out groups and organizations that would best suit your children and the way you wish to raise them.
Tell us more of this “homosexual lifestyle” that I keep hearing about. :rolleyes: No, wait, better yet – never mind. I’ve heard it all before…
Indeed.
Why I oughta… :mad:
As I said, if the BSA were a public accommodation, they most certainly would have to conform to the public, i.e., public law.
At this point there is nothing further anyone can do – the BSA has been ruled a private organization by the USSC, and that’s that. However, there are repercussions, and obviously not just by “the gays” – cities all over the country are re-evaluating their ties with the BSA because, as public government, they can no longer associate in the same way with the BSA since it is a private organization. That’s just the way the law works. Plus, on far more personal levels, parents do not want their children involved in such an exclusive club, so they’re actively looking for alternatives. In the end, the public at large will determine what happens to the BSA, and it seems on the surface that they’re paying for their stance. Their choice, their consequences.
Zette, I do remember “The Outsiders.” C. Thomas Howell was Pony Boy, wasn’t he?
They’ve been repaid for years by the perks paid to local troops through free or discounted space rentals for meetings and activities, publicly supported funds, etc. But the USSC ruling has changed all that, saying unequivocably that they are a private organization and should be treated as such. Similarly, churches around the country certainly do quite a lot of good for the public, and they get their own repayment in the form of, for example, no taxes, but they are certainly not treated as public institutions, and nor should the BSA.
A wise course of action for both straight and gay scout leaders, since, as you said, the Boy Scouts have absolutely nothing to do with sex. Similarly, if rumors started about a scout master’s infidelity, or perhaps not having sex at all, these have no place in a Troop meeting, and I’m sure the BSA has policies in effect to handle such situations; I don’t see how being gay is any different.
And this seems to be what’s happening, sadly, as I agree that the Boy Scouts have a lot of good to teach kids, but exclusion and intolerance shouldn’t be among them.
You find a viably alternative group, such as Scouting For All or other groups mentioned. They may not be as big, but certainly you’ll get the same benefits without having to make any nasty compromises.
They do not – if they did, either the USSC could have ruled them a public accommodation (and probably would have), or they would have immediately lost any federal funding, and we would have heard about that.
The Girl Scouts do not discriminate against Atheists or lesbians. In fact, IIRC, they even have some male troop leaders.
zen101, you’re a nasty little fuck, you know that? 
Pffft – like I’d have to wait for you? Puh-lease, Mary – I already have three dates lined up.
Esprix
:rolleyes: The “subtle difference” between you and a hate group is that you hide behind religion to substantiate your bigotry, whereas they just come right out and say it - personally, I don’t see much difference between preaching “love the sinner, hate the sin” (a tacit permission for discrimination) and “let’s go beat up some faggots” (which is simply more straightforward). If I’m laying by the side of the road, feel free to pass me by, and go and sin no more.
Esprix
He just sounds like a jerk to me, and not much of a role model or teacher, IMHO. Every kid goes at their own pace, and that should be respected.
And sure non-sexual male bonding is important - why do you think I like those Abercrombie & Fitch catalogs so much.
Esprix
Ahunter3
That is hilarious, in a sad way! It sounds like your scoutmaster was a wee bit shaky in the self esteem department. I have run into people like him in the past; neanderthal types. I bet he also believes keep’em barefoot and pregnant! He’s one long joke on himself.
I can honestly say I’m secure in my manhood, despite a wife and 3 daughters (no son), and being the sole male working with a group of 5 women. Sheesh! Even my pets are female, from our Golden Retrievers down to the Gerbils.
(anyone feel sorry for me yet? )
Esprix, well spoken. I even agree in principal with some of it.
The crux of my argument here has not been about homosexuality per se, but the BSAs right to exclude it. And yes, there will be consequences to their actions and stance; there always are. I teach my kids that!
Life is choices, and choices beget consequences and responsibility, good or bad.
When all the dust of media hype and litigation has settled, in the end the people of this country will decide by the most effective means yet divised; they will vote with their feet, either toward or away. And that fundamentally is what this country is ever about.
Thanks, Esprix. Fair enough. They certainly seem more hardcore to me on the religious thing than the gay thing (that is, any time a Scout says the oath, he says he believes in God; as far as I can tell, he doesn’t have to say he’s straight). And I suppose it comes down to one’s level of offense. I’d hate to think that society (even society as reflected in public school) is so scared of offense now that ANYTHING having to do with faith is excluded. In grade school in Milwaukee we could have no Christmas decorations because one of the students was Seventh-Day Adventist. On the other hand, as a Catholic I was mildly offended to have to listen to a Baptist baccalaureate ceremony before graduation in my public high school in southern Missouri (not offended enough, though, to make it a court case or anything). Having some openness to religious expressions of faith (ALL of them) seems to me a different thing than state establishment of religion or coerced prayer. And it seems to me we could do worse than just suck it up and deal with things that offend us once in a while.
And on yet another only tangentially related issue–I think it’s too bad the way men are looked at in this society, as though they’re all basically criminals in waiting. Like I said in my first post in this thread, many parents would not like the idea of their sons camping alone with a gay man. Furthermore, many parents would not like their daughters camping alone with a straight man. I think this is a shame, given what a small small percentage of men actually abuse children. I think it keeps men from interacting with kids in the same way women do, which is bad both for the men and for the kids. I don’t see how to fix it, though, given the lengths most parents are willing to go to protect their kids from any potential harm. Guess if I did, I wouldn’t be spending so much time on message boards.
Esprix, Stick it in your ear, pony boy.
[sarcasm]
I am absolutely sure that in the depths of your heart you are totally free of all bias and prejudice.
[/sarcasm]
We are all products of our upbringing and environment. Were my experiences identical with yours, I no doubt would be just like you, and vice versa. I do try and discern right from wrong, and act and change accordingly. I have changed, for the better, since coming to this board (for proof, I refer you to an ancient pit thread, where we both were on the rant).
Stick around; I will likely continue to grow and change. The day that stops is the day I die.
Palandine
Very well spoken! I agree, particularly with your second paragraph. It saddens me that men can’t interact as freely with children as do women. Unfortunately that’s part of the environment we live in.
I have read a couple articles (mostly dealing with how local organizations are handling this issue) in the Boston Sunday Globe. Otherwise, all my news comes from NPR. I just tried to do a search at http://www.npr.org, but their server seems to be down. If you do go the the NPR site (and you’ll need RealAudio or something similar to listen to the stories) there is an interview on Talk of the Nation with the BSA’s official spokesman that is very interesting.
The Boy Scouts are not a religious organization, i.e.: founded by/ run by a religious order. They have no stated religious affiliation. However, they are set up according to religious principles. The policy falls under the Scout rule about being “morally straight”. According to religious principles, homosexuality is not moral. Neither is adultery. Scout leaders have been ousted for having affairs. (Personally, I feel if an Eagle Scout gets a girl pregnant he should have his rank stripped.) A Scoutmaster has a duty to lead a moral example for his troop. The Boy Scout organization is not teaching hatred or exclusion, and the only intolerance is for immorality.
Now if you want to get into a debate about the philosophical nature of morality, and, even bigger, about what is “right” or “wrong”, I s’pose I’ll see you in GD.
Eve: You don’t have to be a Christian to be a Boy Scout. You just have to believe in God and be willing to learn, and abide by, His moral principles. There are Jews and Muslims that belong. My brother’s Cub Scout pack included one Indian boy. I assume he was Hindu, though it never occured to me to ask.
robinh: Please try not to use such a “horribly exaggerated example”. This is what distresses me so much about the fallout from the Court decision. Media/ public perception has been turned against the Scouts because their policies have been distorted as being discrimination for discrimination’s sake. That principle is what racist attitudes are. Religious teachings are distorted to justify these, which is a grevious violation of God’s law, and NOT what the Scouts are about. I’m so afraid that, with public perception turned, soon a Scout’s uniform will be viewed the same as a white hood.
Now for a personal speech…
I am a practicing Lutheran. I try, day in and day out, to live by God’s laws and the teachings of Christ. At the church I attend, I have learned that only God is the ultimate judge. HOWEVER, as a human being, I do have the right to evaluate a person’s character based on their actions. If someone’s actions run counter to my principles & convictions, I am able to choose not to involve that person in my life. Additionally, I have to live with the consequences of that choice.
I have been taught to love everyone, but I’ve also been taught that not everyone acts in accordance with my principles. I am to evaluate these people’s actions and adjust my behavior accordingly. In essence, I am forbidden to judge a person, but I can judge their actions. Unfortunately, this view has been contracted into the very trite “hate the sin, love the sinner”. I’ve tried to illustrate that it’s much more than that, but I may need to work harder at it.
Esprix, I haven’t finished reading all your threads, but I seem to detect that you have a certain amount of disparaging attitude towards Christians as a whole. This saddens me deeply. I would like to meet whoever treated you badly in the name of Christ and vehemently admonish them. They have broken one of the commandments and taken the Lord’s name in vain. In other words, they’ve used the name of the Lord to justify doing that which is evil, a serious sin.
However,
This holds true whether the discriminated are gays or Christians. Heck, I like to think I have more in common with Matthew Sheppard than with the vermin that killed him. I would gladly have taken his place…
I hope you will give us another chance. It would make me very sad knowing I was judged because of the actions of some (seriously) misguided brethren. None of us believers are perfect, we’re all still struggling against our baser natures.
Thanks.
Oh, and thanks for welcoming Deacon’s Trucked on your III thread. He’s my brother.