Tygr, you can remove your head from the chopping block; you’ve spoken very eloquently, and voiced precisely how I try to conduct myself in living my life; I too am a practicing Lutheran, ELCA. I fear that Esprix is blinded and hurting, and I agree that whoever hurt him in the past, was not Christian, in my book. Perhaps he will leave off hiding behind inflammatory rhetoric one day.
Welcome aboard.
Once again weighing in with my opinion. Esprix, I have often admired your strength of coviction, many of your posts, there is a lot about you I like. Your constant Christian-bashing however has really gotten old. We are all individuals, and NO ONE should be lumped into a ‘category’ just because of their beliefs. All Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, etc, etc all fall under the ‘umbrella’ of Christianity, yet we all have our differences as well. It is just as ludicrous to assume all Christians think alike on every issue as it is to assume that all gay men are out to convert all of our young sons.
As to the rest of what’s been said, Vestal Blue once again has stated his opinion most eloquently, and said just what I think and feel better than I probably could have. So, I’ll just say that I agree with all he’s said so far. Must be one reason we’ve been such good friends for so many years. 
Tygr, I agree with all you said as well. Most succintly and eloquently put. I can see I’m going to like you, welcome aboard. {{{{{{Tygr}}}}}}
Back in the late 70’s and early 80’s, Harvey comics used to have ties to the BSA, and would feature their characters as boy scouts from time to time. Keep in mind that these characters included Casper The Friendly Ghost and Hot Stuff, The Little Devil. Now, I guess what this means is that although homsexuals aren’t allowed, the undead are, and although you MUST believe in God, you can be diametrically opposed to him. 
The problem with this (and that is essentially the BSA’s position) is that homosexuality, in and of itself, is not considered immoral by many, if not most religions.An analogy would be if BSA said that remmarriage after divorce was immoral according to religious principles (it at least to the Catholic Church) and therefore those who remarried without an annulment could not be leaders, even in a troop chartered by a church that didn’t hold that position.
If the BSA had chosen a different ( and I think wiser)approach and let the charter organization decide who can be a leader in their units ( as they do for virtually every other moral issue), then each group could have chosen their leaders according to their moral standards.Those groups that find homosexuality immoral could exclude them as leaders, while those who don’t find it immoral could include them.
Do you really grow and change Vestal Blue? Or, does your bigotry just become more eloquent over time?
‘The Homosexual Agenda?’ Crap. If wanting equal rights is an ‘agenda,’ then women, blacks, and other minorities have an agenda that you should be concerned about as well.
This fecal matter about Christianity and homosexuality is ludicrous. The Bible has been used to ‘prove’ why white people should have slaves, why women shouldn’t vote or speak in church, and a variety of other hateful things. One can interpret the Bible anyway one wants. Using it as a crutch for your prejudice(and don’t claim you aren’t), is pathetic.
You ignored goboy and his posts about a black youngster not being allowed in a BSA chapter because of racism. Is that because you could not find an argument against it without showing your true colors? Could you not find an argument that claimed that it wasn’t the same thing when it is obvious that it is?
With you being a Christian, by the way, how is it that you use the term Vestal when it is from the Goddess Roman Vesta, who is the Goddess of the Hearth and Family? Aren’t you afraid that your god will strike you down?
How in the hell did a debate thread stay in MPSIMS?
Okay. BSA is private orginization. So they’ll lose public facilities, et al. That’s a choice they live with. They’ll adjust and adapt. Big Deal. It isn’t like it’s the end of the world. Otherwise, I can’t really see why the fuss. If you don’t like their policy, don’t join. It’s about that easy.
First off, shouldn’t this be moved to GD?
Second, the Boy Scouts are a private organization, and can do whatever the hell they want. However, I’m a private citizen, and I can protest that decision as much as I want. And I will. To think that if a boy decided he was gay, he’d be kicked out…isn’t that a hard enough time for a young boy WITHOUT being kicked out of an organization he loves?
And also…I would honestly call them a Christian organization. I have a feeling that if some boy didn’t say the words “under god” in the oath, he’d be kicked out. And that annoys the HELL out of me, seeing as I’m not Christian either.
And finally, a word on something, although I think it should be moved to a different thread, perhaps. Hastur, etc. have a point. Bigotry is bigotry, regardless of whether it’s cloaked by Christian teachings. Nowhere in the Bible did Jesus condemn a homosexual. Nowhere does it condemn BEING one, either. Jesus commanded us to love one another. And perhaps some day we will all learn that as well, and quit hiding behind calling it a “perversion.”
I’m not sure what you mean by “discrimination for discrimination’s sake.” I truly don’t believe that the Scouts are refusing membership to gays for the fun of it. They are doing so because they, as a group, hold very strong beliefs regarding the morality of homosexuality. I assume that this rule has caused quite a bit of heartache for leaders who have had to enforce it against people they knew to be, otherwise, good candidates for Scouting.
Though some of the posters here have expressed a desire that the BSA change its policy, I don’t think that is necessarily the best solution. If, because they wanted to retain public accomodation status, they caved in, they would be denying their principles and those of many Scouting families who joined because of their stated policy of insisting on “moral straightness.” We would simply end up with a different group of people who won’t feel comfortable with the organization. Of course, what I’d really like to do is wave my magic wand and convince everyone that we are all equally wonderful in the-diety-of-your-choice’s eyes, but I’m not holding my breath while I wait for that to happen. So, as different people will continue to hold differing beliefs and may, under our laws, form private organizations over whose membership they retain control, we should allow them to do so. At the same time, those organizations must realize that they will have to stand up under their own power. They cannot expect to receive the same subsidies offered to truly public, open-to-all-without-exception organizations.
Not really… I’m not comparing the BSA to Aryan Nations but no one would ever dream of saying, if you don’t like Aryan Nations don’t join, it’s that easy. Or if you don’t like the republicans don’t join. or if you don’t like the human rights campaing, don’t join.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Hastur *
**
Do you really grow and change Vestal Blue? Or, does your bigotry just become more eloquent over time?**
Oh? So you hide behind an inflammatory term too? not surprising.
**
‘The Homosexual Agenda?’ Crap. If wanting equal rights is an ‘agenda,’ then women, blacks, and other minorities have an agenda that you should be concerned about as well.**
I don’t believe I used the word agenda, nor do I remember wanting to deny anyone their equal rights. Just because they don’t like the BSA’s stand isn’t a denial of rights. what ‘right’ do they have to change an organization? Why don’t they exercise their right to establish their own organization? You can stick your hypocrisy in your ear.
This fecal matter about Christianity and homosexuality is ludicrous. The Bible has been used to ‘prove’ why white people should have slaves, why women shouldn’t vote or speak in church, and a variety of other hateful things. One can interpret the Bible anyway one wants. Using it as a crutch for your prejudice(and don’t claim you aren’t), is pathetic.
There have been those that have used the bible to advance evil, but are you going to trash everything it stands for, as well as my and others’ beliefs over the actions of a few wackos? Now that’s pathetic!
**
You ignored goboy and his posts about a black youngster not being allowed in a BSA chapter because of racism. Is that because you could not find an argument against it without showing your true colors? Could you not find an argument that claimed that it wasn’t the same thing when it is obvious that it is?**
Your true colours are showing loud and clear, pal. I didn’t ignore it; I just didn’t answer it. But since you’ve brought it up, the most it reflected on the BSA was the weakness of the scoutmaster. The bigotry indicated lay squarely on the church the meeting was being held at. Quite frankly, that is a church I would refuse to attend, myself.
**With you being a Christian, by the way, how is it that you use the term Vestal when it is from the Goddess Roman Vesta, who is the Goddess of the Hearth and Family? Aren’t you afraid that your god will strike you down? **
It has nothing to do with religion. I’ll explain it in simple terms, so you’ll understand. It is a fictional call sign of a WWII fighter pilot. But now I suppose you’re going to tell me you have something against Hearth and Family?
And I’m not sure what God you believe in, if any, but mine is one of forgiveness and Grace.
In short, I suggest you remove the fecal matter from your ears, and try using your head for something besides a hat rack.
I have so many gay/lesbian friends, and I would trust any of them with my children far more than I would trust a lot of heterosexuals. Sexuality has nothing to do with it at all, in my mind. My feelings are, what does this group have to offer my children? How can my children be best exposed to a positive atmosphere?
There’s nothing to worry about from this end. Thanks for the feedback and support.
Mot suprising that you are a bigot, or that you are in denial of your biogtry?
Is it? I think not. What is pathetic is that you are using a book to substatiate your points which has been edited, reinterpreted, and excised so many times that it isn’t even a shadow of the original. You want support for your narrow views and against your belief that you grow and change, spout the same fecal matter over and over again.
I just find it ironic that you, who did use the term Homosexual Agenda, do have a name which came from a Goddess of Hearth and Family(which I do believe in, but I doubt you do).
Your post looks like forgiveness and grace to me, my dear hypocrite. You don’t want to debate, you just want to spew your anti-gay views and sit in judgement as the small contingent of your like-minded supporters applaud you while you deride and insult any gay person who contradicts you.
Get a life.
Sorry, hon. Corinthians 6:9 "Do you know the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders.
And that is not the only place. It is not open for debate.
Again you prove your intolerance and attachment to dogma by posting another bit of Biblical feces. Do you question nothing? Are you just a Christian Drone that does as it is told, no matter how wrong you think it is?
I recant on my previous statement for you to get a life and suggest instead you get a clue and start examining things with more scrutiny. Your rigid dogma is showing.
Hastur you don’t want a debate either.
As for the bible being just a book, that’s your mistaken opinion.
Your comment concerning the bible being not even a shadow of the original just points up your ignorance. It has been proven more than once that the bible is identical to it’s original greek translation from over 2000 years ago, most recently from the dead sea scrolls.
The only hate and bigotry I see being spouted here right now is from you. Bigotry cuts both ways.
I support your right to your opinion and beliefs, but I won’t rise to the dreck you seem to think constitutes debate.
Actually, the Sea Scrolls and the Gospels of Thomas show that a great deal was excised and edited from the Bible.
You’ve gone far enough to say that there can be no debate on the Bible. Dogmatic tripe. You don’t want debate because without dogma, your faith would be damaged. Better to be a sheep that a shephard from the way you are talking.
Hastur
Read my post again. What I said is that there is no debate that the statement is in there. My apologies; I should have worded it more succinctly for you.
All I’ve seen so far in your ‘debate’ is you verbally shitting all over the bible and Christianity, as well as hurling insults. One can only verbalize what is in ones’ mind, and so far all I see from you is sewage. Grow up.
Putz.
G’night folks; see ya tomorrow.
No, what you see and fail to admit is that you are dogmatically attaching your interpretation of the Bible to your point of view so you can slander and stand in judgement of people you disagree with. I’ve not personally insulted you, dear hypocrite, but like many of your zealous brethren, you don’t hesitate to do it to others and claim injury.
[Moderator Hat ON]
Now that this is residing in Great Debates, everyone calm down and stop flinging insults and fecal matter about, m’kay? Or else.
[Moderator Hat OFF]