sorrry. That was just too funny… Keep up the humor Vestal.
From Corinthians 6:9
9
Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: Neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers:
10
Nor the effeminate nor liers with mankind nor thieves nor covetous nor drunkards nor railers nor extortioners shall possess the kingdom of God.
hmmm… why don’t you go rail on drunkards… They are just as evil as homosexuals.
Really? Well, that quote from Corinthians you posted is different from the one in my book. The end refers to “sodomites”. And the explanation says:The Greek word translated as"boy prostitutes" may refer to catamites, i.e. boys or young men who were kept for purposes of prostitution, a practice not uncommon in the Greco-Roman world…<i>The term sodomites would then refer to adult males who indulged in homosexual practices with such boys.</i>
In other words there is a discrepency between your translation and mine. While i’m going for a stretch here, your translation refers to homosexuals in general. Mine refers to men who had sex with catamites. So, how is the bible “identical to its original Greek translation from over 2000 years ago”.
Anyway vestal, why shouldn’t people try to change the BSA? Yes, people dont have to join if they want, but since they pass themselves off as a community service organization, i see no reason why people shouldn’t be able to object and try to change their policies on God and homosexuals. My view is, if they want to exclude homosexuals and atheists, or those who dont believe in Christianity, they should state up front that they are a Christian organization.
Oh come on, VB. A homosexual offender is one who is simply BEING homosexual? Nope. And “it’s not open for debate?” So Esprix, Hastur, goboy, and half my friends are going to hell BECAUSE they’re gay? That’s what it sounds like from here.
And I stand by my statement that JESUS did never, and WOULD never, condemn someone for being homosexual. And THAT is not open for debate either.
VB, it pains me to say this, but yes, YOU have done it too. You called being homosexual a “perversion.” And I’m sorry, dear one, but that is, at the very least, hateful. And not Christian.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Vestal Blue * waterJ2 “Because I’m right” ? Oh please.
[quote]
My point is that while most of us believe that Boy Scouts are free to exclude whoever they want (as a libertarian, I don’t even care whether they are a public accomodation), we advocate them changing their stance because we believe that stance to be wrong. Simply put, I think the Boy Scouts should allow homosexuals because it is the right thing to do, not because of any crap about people having an innate right to be a Boy Scout.
I understood your point, and agree to some extent. I was just trying to explain why people get more vocal on the issue of rights. I ask you what is more important, the right of the Boy Scouts to exclude homosexuals or their responsibility to not introduce the children of our nation to an atmosphere of bigotry? I want the Boy Scouts to change because I consider that an important responsibility for them. They, of course, disagree, and I recognize their right to do so, but I’m still free to tell them my opinions.
My experience with the Boy Scouts has led me to believe that heterosexuality is not an essential feature of the organization. They have every right to be a heterosexual organization, but I see no reason that they should be.
Actually, people are perfectly free to discriminate against the Boy Scouts because of what they stand for. If I think the organization is promoting bigotry in the youth of this country, you can be damn sure that I’m not going to help them with this. I have as much right to withold my support from the Boy Scouts as they have to exclude gays.
Which has nothing to do with whether the Boy Scouts should change their stance on homosexuality.
I have no responsibility to support the Boy Scouts’ position. It’s theirs and they’ve got the right to it, but I certainly don’t have to shut up about my views. In time, I believe that they will be shown that their actions are wrong. Until then, I can do what I want to point it out.
But you don’t have to be a Christian to join the Boy Scouts. They had little badges for Buddhist and Jews when I was in the scouts. In fact nowhere in the Boy Scout oath/code does it mention anything about Jesus Christ.
My understanding was that any Buddhist sect was welcome. Can you find me any cite that states the general policy of Boy Scouts is to not allow Buddhist? Since the Boy Scout oath requires a belief in a higher power I can see why atheist and agnostics would not be welcome. I don’t know about UU’s but I’d like a cite to see the BSA’s stance on them as an organization. There were merit badges you could earn for religious study. I seem to recall a christian badge, a jewish badge, and a buddhist badge, and maybe even a hindu one in one of the BS catalogs.
Personally I think in a few years the BSA will get rid of their rules regarding homosexuals. Heck, there was a a troop down in the Dallas area protesting the exclusion of people simply for being homosexual. They might even change their stance on agnostics and atheist but they’d have to amend the Boy Scout oath.
I also don’t think the Boy Scouts should be prohibited from using public buildings. I think if public buildings are made available for use then they should be available to everyone. Just because an organization is or isn’t in popular favor shouldn’t matter. If a chapter of Dykes on Bikes wants to use a room in a local High School for their meetings that’s fine with me.
Marc
PS: I used to be a scout many moons ago. At the time I did believe in God. My experience with them was largely positive as most of our time was spent camping and learning outdoors stuff. Today I couldn’t qualify to be a scout because I’m an atheist. Such is the way of life I suppose.
Conservative estimates put the ratio of homosexual experimentation at about one in five (my personal opinion is that it it probably more like 2 to 3 in five but maybe I just know a lot more curious people than the average cat does.).
I was a Scout and made it to Life scout because of a lot of encouragement and help and guidance but after moving and being unable to find a troop that I wanted to get involved with I dropped out. I’m glad I did before I knew about such things as homosexuality.
I like many young boys who maybe didn’t have a perfect TV home life had a lot of problems with self esteem and feeling good about myself, scouting helped that. I was part of a group of people who liked me and we all stuck with one another.
What are we telling our boys about themselves if we put them in an organization that we trust to teach them self confidence and self reliance if that same organization says that being gay is a bad thing? I had enough problems witout being told that the one group of people who I felt were on my side didn’t want me because maybe I thought I was gay or liked other boys in a way that wasnt “morally straight”.
You want to talk about this being America and whats so great about this country and so on and so forth and founding fathers and all that? Great, but apparently your America is about bigotry and prejudice. you like that? You want to say “love it or leave it.”? I say I’m not leaving and I’m not shutting up because I want to love America more than I do. When your kids screw up I suppose you abandon them on the roadside and start over? wtf is that? America is my child and I’m right about bigots having no place teaching our children so I’m not leaving I’m shouting for change. I won’t just accept something because the courts decided something because the courts bow to the law and the law is immoral. Andrew Jackson said that a wise man does not bow to an unjust law. Our country was founded by a bunch of land owners who didn’t like the tax system, you can glorify them all you want but thats what happened. WE had slaves and women couldn’t vote. If people didn’t bitch and moan and fight for equality then it would still be that way.
You say because it is a private organization that it’s ok to exclude people. It may be legal to exclude people but don’t confuse legal with “right”. It’s legal to join the clan too but at least most people know that it is wrong. Until people like you VB and others realize that making something legal does not make something right then you will continue to poison our nation. So I say things are changing and are going to continue to do so and if you don’t like it then get the hell out of my country because you are poisioning her.
And I wish this was in the pit because this post would have been about two pages longer if I could have used name calling.
p.s. Esprix you sexy bitch you know I am!
p.p.s. VB I can’t stand it when gentiles use words like Putz and Schmuck like it’s less offensive than calling someone a “cock”. It’s the same word Goyim.
I had never heard anything about Buddhists before. They don’t, in my experience, really enforce any of these rules much. I have been an assistant scoutmaster in my troop (while I do not support the policies of the national organization, I have made many friends there, and see no reason to give that up) for four years without ever having had to feign religious belief.
And oldscratch, I’m always amazed at how closely we see so many different issues. And even if we didn’t, I’d still be impressed with your wit, humor, and good taste. BTW, the j is before the 2. Why does everyone screw that up?
Define homosexual experimentation. Because this is somewhat different than my experience. But my experience is mostly with fairly conservative people. Plus my aforementioned tendency to join groups that are admittedly anti-gay.
Just because a commitee of churches got together a couple of years ago and declared that Mormons were not Christian, does not mean it’s true. It only means that various churches define Christianity differently.
In my opinion they are Christian, the members believe they are Christian, other religions believe they are Christian, and (just to bring this on topic) a portion of the Boy Scout leadership most likely believe that Mormons are Christians.
Last I heard, W. Mitt Romney, whom I remember from his fight against evil (he ran for the Senate against Ted Kennedy in ‘94), was a Mormon and on the Board of Directors of the Boy Scouts of America. I believe that the Mormons consider themselves Christians, so that’s one vote among the Boy Scouts’ leadership. Although he also said that he opposed the policy excluding homosexuals, IIRC, so he might not be the most influential member of the board.
I think to define experimentation is a two-fold process. Some things that I have done might not be considered homosexual experimentation to you and vice versa however in my case specifically touching, fantasy, kissing when I was very young (like under 16). Later on in life more than that but it wasn’t experimenting later on, at least not by my definition.
No problem. People seem to forget that many Buddhist sects do not believe in a higher power. Hence they are agnostic, and disqualified. But here you go…
Members of religious organizations (or individuals with personal religious beliefs) that do not have a
belief in a god. This includes Agnostics, Atheists, some Unitarian Universalists, some Buddhists, and
others. *
and waterj2… sorry. I’m not sure why we always mess it up. Communist conspiracy perhaps? I’ll have to buy you a beer when you get out here. Yes I know you’ll be in the south, but maybe you can make it for the norcal socal dopefest or something
Esprix, your prejudices are showing. Yes, I know a lot of people use religion as an excuse for homophobia and discrimination, but this is not always the case. One of my best friends is a Christian who takes the Bible as mostly literally true (she is a Creationist, but doesn’t believe the 7 days were 7 of our days). She believes that men having sex with men is a sin, that if you do so and do not stop and ask forgiveness, you will go to Hell when you die.
She is also what is known as a ‘fag hag’. She says she gets along better with gay men than any women or most straight men. Most of her male friends are gay, I’ve met most of my gay friends through her. She is an open minded person about most things, except her religion. I have asked her about this apparent contradiction, and she basically said that ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’ thing. She says she used to talk to her closer gay friends about her beliefs, but almost always it totally alienated them, they would accuse her of being homophobic and never talk to her again. She’s NOT, she just believes that God has certain rules for reasons we can’t begin to understand and He enforces them strictly. Now she just prays that they will become celibate (she also prays for me for unrelated reasons).
I don’t think she’s a very realistic person, and I certainly don’t agree with her beliefs, but I respect them. Her beliefs do not lead her to hate or to treat anyone wrong. I’m sure there are a lot of Christians who are the same as her, and I think it’s wrong to lump them together with people who use those verses as an excuse to hate and are hypocrites because of it.
Again, no surprise in your response. You are not interested in debate, and anything I say is just another opportunity for you to tear down something you don’t understand, nor wish to. I don’t stand in judgement of anybody; I am so far from perfect, and the first to admit it.
The heart of true Christianity is the gift of Grace and forgiveness, but that forgiveness has another side, which is repentance. Failure to repent is a repudiation of that gift, which is freely offered to all.
If in your eyes that is bigotry and hypocrisy, then guilty as charged, but don’t stand there and slam my faith and belief and refuse to recognize your own bigotry.
And don’t flatter yourself; my faith is in no danger of being damaged. Your blip on my radar screen is less than insignificant.
I’ll address this in this thread, but to sum up, if Christianity can “love the sinner, hate the sin,” why can’t I “love the Christian, hate Christianity?”
No problem. I’m sure he’ll be a good addition to the board.
Well said, Saint – this isn’t the end of the world for them or anyone else.
He would – Atheists were the other lawsuit brought against the BSA that failed.
Very true. I, for one, am not demanding they change their views, because the USSC ruled them a private organization, so they’re legally entitled. Doesn’t mean I’m not going to encourage them to change, because I believe it would make them a better organization in the long run.
It’s sad that there are only a few other BSA-type organizations out there, and certainly none that I know of that reach their scope. Hopefully this situation will give some of them the attention and membership they deserve.
Sadly, after reading this, I’m going to have to go with Hastur and agree you’re sounding blindly dogmatic here. To not even allow debate, even on something you hold so dear, shows that faith, when blind, is truly a dangerous thing. (Perhaps our dear Polycarp would care to chime in on this?)
The BSA pulled the UU religious merit badge when the UUA complained about their exclusions of Atheists and gay scouts and leaders. The entire exchange of information, from the horses’ mouths, can be found here, including the actual letters exchanged between the two organizations.
Well, if the dykes can’t, the scouts can’t. And the NY school district did say that the Equal Access Act grants troops the right to use facilities after school hours, as it would any other private group, but they can’t directly recruit or be endorsed in any way by the school itself.
This, I think, is the most damning thing about the BSA’s position – “morally straight” or not, there is an implicit lesson being taught to gay scouts (and the straight ones as well), that they’re bad and not worthy of inclusion. If the kids are the most important thing to the organization, how does this help?
