How, objectively, is this any different at all from the experience commonly described as sleep? When I lie down tonight, I will lose consciousness forever and a few hours after I snuff out, a new person will wake in the morning, having stolen my past.
Hard, indeed!
Assuming that I, as the progenitor, were told in advance that I would remain conscious throughout the process, and assuming that the process were a gradual one, as you say, possibly even extending over several hours, my guess is that I might perceive it as something akin to the “déjà vu” phenomenon, only not as briefly as it’s typically experienced… and in stereo.
It might be alarming at first, uncomfortable and a bit disconcerting not being able to quite focus on the here and now… there and then… where and when. Assuming Tibby’s mitosis is a painless divide, and homogenous in the sense that all cells are redistributed at the same rate, thus avoiding the panic one might feel at seeing disembodied organs coagulating before him in mid-air, I might even begin to go with the flow, to isolate thoughts, identify them as first-run or re-run, as coming from me or toward me. I might hear the sound of my own voice without speaking, sense my muscles flexing involuntarily to a point beyond taut, releasing with a silent snap, feeling at once every pore of my skin as with cocaine, sense without seeing myself beside me as in an out-of-body event, all distortions a consequence, I would guess, of frontal lobe frontal over lobe sensory load.
>whew<
I doubt that it would be nearly that startling for the splone, though, at least not at first - more like coming out of a deep sleep - the kind of measured awakening where one’s assorted extremities come around on their own time, not on command. Things might not make sense immediately, thoughts and images might be confused and distorted, maybe even a bit baffling at first, but that would be OK, because one would be waking up and in no hurry to do so, and all of that is normal when one wakes up… oh, so gently. What would be distinctly abnormal would be the sudden recollection of being promised full consciousness throughout the mitosis. As abruptly as a thunderclap, I would know that I wasn’t, and I would know I’m the splone.
Geez… you go away for a couple hours…
I think you’ve changed the ground rules here, but since it’s your game, I suppose you’re allowed.
Meh. I like mine better.
He who lies down with splones… 
Sorry mangetout, but I feel that you’re missing my point.
Are you referring to adult mitosis as I have proposed it? It does not matter whether it *does *happen; it matters only whether it *can *happen. Remember, this is a thought experiment, but it has to play by the rules (it cannot violate any laws of science). Does adult mitosis break any physical law? I say no. If you think that it does, please explain.
Or, are you referring to my reference to subatomic mitosis being the only way that the original consciousness can be continued? If yes, then I agree. It is not possible; it cannot be possible. That’s my point. My point being: if the only way for something to be true is to invoke the impossible, then that something must be false. Is there any way for a consciousness to survive being split in two, unaltered and unlinked? I believe that the only way would be if the elemental particles undergo mitosis, creating copies identical at the most basic level. But subatomic mitosis breaks laws of physics, and is therefore impossible. Ergo: splitting a consciousness in two must be impossible. I suspect that you agree with this point. If not, please explain.
Remember, my position is as follows:
Consciousness and matter ride together. So long as the matter is left unaltered and undamaged the consciousness will do the same. If the consciousness that we are talking about is you, then *you *will feel “in the present” at any point in time that your consciousness is “awake”. I believe that at any point in time from birth until you undergo mitosis, you will be “in the present”. At the point of mitosis, I believe that stops. Why? Because it is at that point that the matter becomes altered. Why do I believe that alteration of the matter alters the subconscious? 2 reasons: 1) if consciousness and matter are linked, then it follows that if you alter one, the other will be altered as well (with regard to consciousness, the alteration is destruction), and more importantly, 2) It perfectly resolves a paradox of physical law. At any point in time after division, your splones will be and feel “in the present”. They will have perfect recall from before the split, but this is merely an “illusion”. In the strictest sense of the word, “they” never really had the experiences that they remember from before the split, they only think they did. Does this make them something less than human? No, they have everything that any other human being has physically. They also have a real future, and a perceived past. Does this make them valid? That depends on your definition of valid, I suppose.
Question: What *sort *of creature stands in my place tomorrow? A reasonable facsimile? Will something that is kinda like me be the bearer of “my” consciousness tomorrow? It really comes down to the level at which the “creature” mimics you. A picture of me? Nope, won’t have any consciousness. The exact some cellular structure? Nope, may have a consciousness similar to mine, but it won’t be “mine”. Exact same subatomic structure? Yep, that’ll do it. Sorry, that violates physical law and can’t occur. Bummer. I maintain that the 2 splones that result from my mitosis are little more than reasonable facsimiles of me, and if the 2 splones are merely reasonable facsimiles, then the consciousnesses that they possess are merely reasonable facsimiles as well.
I suspect that you may actually agree with me more than you think, but you misunderstand my position.
Here is the test:
2 assumptions:
- Science has perfected a safe and effective method of adult mitosis (cellular, not subatomic).
- You want to live.
Question: Would you under any circumstances agree to undergo mitosis and be split into 2 splones? If you answer “no”, then we are in total agreement and perhaps you should re-read my last post in order gain clarification of my position. If you answer “yes”, then we do not agree and I sincerely wish that you will elaborate *your *position.
Question and answers often expedite understanding of others positions. I’ve asked you a few, feel free to ask me some.
Mr. Tibbs
Again, it depends on the point of view.
It wouldn’t matter at all to your spouse (of course one of the two splones will have to run and hide under the bed before your spouse wakes up).
It wouldn’t matter at all to your splone. Nothing out of the ordinary in his life, except for seeing someone that looks like his identical twin run and hide under the bed.
It would matter to you, except you will be dead and won’t get to witness all the fun.
No, I strenuously disagree; there is no moment of ‘awakening’ for either the ‘original’ or the ‘splone’ - for any given state of consciousness for either individual, there is an immediately preceding state of consciousness; it just happens that at some point, the distinction between these individual preceding states is blurred into one.
Adult mitosis as we’re describing here, is impossible; your consciousness is a product of the arrangement of matter in your brain; it simply wouldn’t be possible for each of your brain cells to undergo mitosis and for the resulting two sets of cells to migrate past each other to form two distinct brains in two distinct crania without disrupting everything about their arrangement.
No, of course I wouldn’t step into the duplicator, but that’s not for any rational reason - only the visceral fear that the forward continuation of my consciouness or ‘person’ would be terminated. As I have already argued, from a naturalistic POV, the concept of personality extending forwards into the future is invalid, becuase it works the other way around.
I agree with Mange. What we are is essentially a processor of sensory input attached to a memory bank. If two entities have exactly the same memory bank, they both think they are the original.
Refute this: Last night, as you drifted off to sleep, you actually died - the ‘real’ Tibbycat actually shuffled off the mortal coil and joined the choir invisible; what awoke this morning is not the real Tibbycat at all, it’s just a very accurate copy, made possible by the inheritance of memory. In fact the ‘real’ Tibbycat that died and went to heaven last night was only a day old, because in fact the ‘real’ Tibbycat had died at the point of loss of consciousness the previous night, and so on.
One possible objection: “Why am I never the one that dies and goes to heaven; I’m always the one that wakes up and thinks I’m still alive?” - no, actually, th real ‘you’ did die last night; the ‘you’ that stands before us now is just the brand-new copy that believes itself to be the real deal.
The real Tibbycat of yesterday is dead and missing all the fun, but nobody, including the current Tibbycat, can tell the difference.
And to extend Mange’s scenario, we don’t even need to hypothesis perfect adult mitosis. The very atoms of your brain and body are largely exchanged with identical atoms over the course of a year or so (with exceptions for bloodless things like tooth enamel). You are effectively copied over a year, and are being copied right now!
How does it feel?
[Shatner]Must…<gasp>Try…To…Stop…Being…Copied…[/Shatner]
Sorry, Sentient, I didn’t mean to relegate your post to the previous page by posting inane drivel; quoting it here so it doesn’t pass unnoticed.
Consciousness is not a subatomic process, it’s an electro-chemical function. There is a structure in the medula that determines consciousness. Its the Reticular Activating system If it’s damaged, or interrupted as your posit implies, the brain powers down. As long as the abnormal conditions exist, the individual will remain unresponsive and unaware. When all is back to normal, each brain would re-awaken. Electro-chemical pathways would power up once more.
Your hypothetical splones must live within the immutable framework of human physiology, or the exercise becomes nothing but a childish fantasy.
Once the two individuals are again sentient, each will recognize himself as the singlton they once were. Unless they discuss their respective self recognition, each will assume the other is the copy. Even with discussion, they will each be convinced of his own originality, viewing the other as sadly delusional.
And, perhaps more significantly, each will be every bit as right as we are when we wake up each morning.
Sorry, you must have missed the day we studied the brain. Brain cells are the longest lived in the body. In fact it was thought until very recently, that we never replaced brain cells. In fact, it seems they do renew over 20 to 30 year periods.
Every type of cell has its own renewal rate, Platelets have very short lives, a few hours at best. Red blood cells last about 30 days.
So the new copy of yourself every year idea is a legend, urban or no.
I’m a very busy person, it just so happens to be on a cellular level.
OK, I stand corrected on the “largely over a year claim”, but this is surely itself as arbitrary a period as saying that a radioactive isotope with a particular half-life has “all” decayed? All we could say is that statistically over a given time, half of the original atoms of that brain cell have been replaced by an identical atom (this being a far more chemical, gradual process than the simple biological manufacture of another entire platelet to replace the entire one I just flushed down the toilet), and that after, say, three half-lives, the brain cell is nearly 90% ‘copied’?
What was the brain cell ‘half-life’ in your studies, out of interest?
Wait a moment though; cells might be replaced on a long cycle, but the chemicals of which they are composed are constantly in flux; if this were not so, they would die.
And more critically, the components of your cells that are not replaced frequently, such as the nuclear DNA, are not replaced because they are not active - anything that is doing its job (i.e. is part of the processes that create consciousness) undergoes frequent change and replenishment.
This is the key refutation of Tibbycat’s apparent fixation on the idea that since mitosis happens, splones are potentially possible. If all of my body’s cells were to split, there would be two very intimately mixed copies of all my cells in one body, with one brain, containing twice as many cells as before. There wouldn’t be a second “me” budding off and walking away.
Indeed; the whole debate is based upon a perhaps impossible hypothetical; i.e. is there any way to perfectly duplicate an entire human being?.
For the sake of debate, though, I’m willing to set that aside and assume we’re talking about some process, such as divine intervention, (hypothetical)teleporter accident, or spacetime anomaly resulting in two identical versions of something that previously only existed as one; two versions that cannot be told apart and where neither can be argued to be more or less ‘original’ than the other.