I hate being attracted to women

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
41

Hey, Wesley? Get out of junior high! No one points or laughs, for Pete’s sake!

You’re right, very occasionally you’ll run into a woman who has the concept of “nice” so beaten in to her that she won’t be able to turn you down in person; she’ll have to do it via email. But I’ll tell you a little secret - no woman is ever rendered hideously uncomfortable by being sought out. She may have to turn you down because she is otherwise involved or for whatever reason simply not interested - hey, it happens. But she’s not been made unhappy by your apparent admiration, anymore than you would be by someone else’s.

I’m seeing a lot of verbage here about dignity and such. Well, guess what? In the world of dating, you actually have to make yourself vulnerable to the extent that you indicate an interest. You don’t have 100% control of the situation, because yes, she may turn you down. It really sucks to be you, you know? There are probably a dozen women in your life whom you have turned down not once, but multiple times, because they were interested and you never asked. The power doesn’t lie with one sex or the other. It lies with whichever party is more interested.

If you want to stop looking for a while, that sounds like a good idea. You’ve referred to dating as “not worth it,” so to you it’s a means to an end (I’m not sure what the end is). If that’s the case, you shouldn’t BE dating; it’s supposed to be intrinsically enjoyable to go on a date with someone. After all, a relationship is basically a long date or series of dates with the same person.

There’s no law that says you need a girlfriend or a wife. So back off and find a life of your own. When you actually want someone with whom to share it, you’ll have something to share.

42

nicely enough this thread just came up in the bbq pit

This is what i mean by ‘talk about me and laugh at me behind my back’ as i have approached strangers before. Luckily i can take hints, and i am polite, and i don’t pursue those who don’t give signs and i carry on a meaningful, platonic conversation with them but i’m sure a few still ran home complaining how terrible it was that i was worth 3 minutes of their time. Sadly you have to wade through alot of chaff to get to any wheat when you approach strangers and you have to stop caring about your dignity almost, which is hard for me. Maybe its just how i approached because i would say 60% of the women I have approached were openly flattered that i thought enough of them and maybe 80% seemed interested in a conversation. the other 20% i cut off ASAP because neither of us wanted to be around each other. No man who doesn’t have self esteem problems pursues women who aren’t interested in him. But you can’t tell until you ask, i guess.

Giveth me thine secrets LordVor. I have only approached a handful of women (15 or so) so i’m not an expert at it.

Also, how do you guys deal with the fear that asking out someone you work with will screw up your normal relationship, either if she accepts or if she rejects you?

43

By dignity im not referring to rejection. i can handle rejection. I guess my not worth it statement is just all the crap i have to go through just to get a date, and when i get a date its a total crapshoot, i have no idea how the person will act or think. The investment doesn’t offer enough dividends, so i don’t do it.

I don’t get you people sometimes. This is my goal, i have a life outside of this subject and i am tired of spending too much mental energy thinking about women. I do not feel i have the skills or the options to find any satisfaction in this area of my life so i want to give it up for a while.

44

You were the one who has several times raised the issue of “laughing behind your back” or “pointing and laughing”.

If you actually have some kind of friendly feeling for the woman you are asking out, not motivated by whatever end it is you are currently seeking, you won’t have to go through a lot of crap and the date itself is unlikely to be a crapshoot. But I gotta tell you, as a woman (me, not you :smiley: ), your attitude toward dating is not one that I would find particularly attractive. I don’t think I’d want to go out with someone whose constant underlying question was “Is she giving good value for the money/effort/time I’m spending? Is this a good investment?” I’d rather go out with someone who actually thought they might enjoy the day/evening and wasn’t enormously concerned about whether this date would pay off.

If you want to give up thinking about women for the time being, no one is arguing with you. Go for it, dude! Actually, I think it would be a good thing.

45

Thats not my motive, i just fear social stigma (and in that other thread there is tons of it thrown out at people who approach women), and i do not find chronic social stigma worth it to get a handful of dates with women i don’t know much about. I don’t think i view it the way you seem to think i do, i just don’t think its worth it for the same reason spending $50 on $20 worth of quarters is worth it.

46

Hi Wesley, I feel for you. I think your heart is in the right place.

I know quite a few people in Bloomington. One of them is my very dear friend (I’ll call her Lisa), who I’ve known since sophomore year of high school. I go to Bloomington all the time to visit her and her new husband. My in-laws also live in a small town near there, and I grew up in Spencer. I know the area well.

Someone recommended swing dancing. I will second that recommendation and add a few more.

Southern Indiana is replete with caves. If you are in any sort of physical shape, join a caving group. There is a southern Indiana grotto and a national grotto. You can meet a very large group of people going caving. You can find friends of any shape and size and type. My friend Lisa is very involved and she teaches cave safety, and she has even been to Belize on a cave scholarship.

The neat thing about caving is that you cave with a small group of people at a time, and it usually lasts several hours. You get to know these people very well, and they usually have parties and other things where you can meet more people. You may not find a girl you want to date on a cave trip, but you may find her at a party or other group activity. And you may make a lot of friends too!

There are absolutely tons of gaming shops in Bloomington. If you like RPGs, you can make friends there – and those friends will have friends who are girls.

You can also volunteer. Lisa is involved in animal rescue operations, and even though that might not be your thing, there are TONS of places that would love volunteers of any stripe. Volunteerism attracts a lot of wonderful, giving people, and if I were to try to find someone to date, I would want to date someone willing to volunteer.

Other things that you might try:

Take a weekend class in anything. Cooking is a favorite, and there is a cooking place right on the square that has classes.

Get involved in women’s sports. Watch the games, talk to the people there.

Look at the university for extra-curricular activities. Singing, playing music, whatever.

Thing is, you have to be willing to talk to people. That’s really tough to do, especially if you’re worried about being creepy. Just try to be yourself, okay?

If you want to see about caving, you can email me.

47

Wesley Clark, if there’s one thing that I, as a woman, have noticed about your posts that’s a turnoff, is how many freaking numbers and percentages you’ve used! It looks like you spend so much damn time analysing every single minute possibility or odds that you completely skip over, oh, I dunno, the actual dating (or even attempt thereof). I mean, if I read these, or heard you talk about this stuff with all these numbers, that would be a major turn-off simply because I would think, “gee, it sounds like he just wants to date any random old person. He doesn’t care about dating me or dating someone who is nice and likes to cook and likes puppies etc etc. He sees dating and relationships from an entirely cold and logical, Vulcan-like perspective.”

That’s not what dating is about, but you sure give that impression. Also, you’ve kept saying “I just want to know that it’s okay to feel like I do; that it’s okay to not want to date.” But the amount of posts you’ve written talking about “Gee, I really don’t want to date, really I don’t! I mean it!” gives the impression that you’re the exact opposite: you desperately want to date, but are afraid of doing so.

What I would do, if I were you: find some activities to do to fill up free time and make friends. If you meet women at those activities, or standing in line somewhere, etc, just strike up a casual, friendly conversation. Do not worry about trying to date her, or woo her. Work on having female friendships first so you can get over female anxiety. And having female friends greatly increases relationship possibilities; even if not with them, they almost definitely have a best friend/coworker/sister/cousin who is single and probably looking. And if you have shown you’re a great guy to hang out with, well, they might recommend you to that girl. :slight_smile:

48

its not like i tell women this statistics stuff when i’m talking to them. I don’t pull out a calculator and tell them ‘there is a 12% chance you’ll go out with me’ or anything like that. I’m just reinforcing what i said in my original post, that the options open to me are not productive or dignified. I just use the 1% and 5% figures to show that i know of whence i speak.

However the advice i have gotten here about socializing in orgs i like is correct and i need to implement it. I would rather have meaningful social get togethers with people i feel comfortable with than try to meet virtual strangers online or in person, even if it doesn’t lead to dating i’d prefer that. So i need to start looking into those things.

49

I agree with ** Jurph’s ** first sentence, but diverge some from there. Friendship with women is a great thing, even if it doesn’t lead directly to romantic involvement. What it does do is start you being comfortable around women as people, and not as some other kind of creatures that make you tense in the pants. You’ll start to realize that by and large, they have all the same feelings and worries that you do, and once that hits home, it’s a lot easier to ask them out.

As to the OP… stick with it. It’s a matter of practice and patience more than anything else. And believe me, I know where you’re coming from. I went to an all-male high school, and then got dumped into a huge public school. It took me a long time to get a date, get a kiss, etc… but still didn’t get into any real relationships or get laid until well after I graduated. Just the way it works, I suppose.

The most important thing to remember is that if you want to get run over by the Love Truck, you have to play in the street. (really lame, but it gets the point across). Nobody likes going up to women cold (like in a bar) and talking to them (except possibly my brother), so don’t do it cold. Find something common or at least have a common situation, then start up a little conversation. For example, if you’re at the grocery looking at oranges, and a woman walks up, try asking her how to choose a good orange. Then introduce yourself, and POOF! you have the start of a conversation. If you hit it off, then just ask for her number when the conversation ends. If not, don’t worry about it. You’ll most likely never see her again.

Oh… one more thing. When you do get a date, have a bit of killer instinct. The vast majority of girls won’t kiss you first, so you have to do it first. And, in my experience, it’s a lot better to get turned down trying than to wonder if you could have.

50

So, going by the thread title, which one are you, mentally challenged, crazy, or deranged? Have you stuck your hand up a woman’s skirt to slap a cold can of soda on her ass? Pissed in the bus seat while ogling her and asking if she has a boyfriend? Called her a bitch as a term of endearment? Smacked your head repeatedly while asking her out? Or, walked up to women at random while passing on the street and asked them to be your girlfriend within 15 seconds of beginning the conversation?

Because that’s what most of the discussion in that thread is about, and unless any of those things apply to you, you shouldn’t argue that this is more evidence of why you just shouldn’t bother to try dating. Yes, you say that you don’t quote stats around women, you don’t do this, you don’t do that, but I half suspect that the attitude comes through in your conversations regardless. If a woman’s talking to you but feels this undercurrent of “just go away already, you know you’re going to, all women do,” she will certainly oblige.

And yes, yes, definitely find some kind of social outlet. Having at least whatever group (dancing, book discussion, etc.) in common to discuss and as an excuse to talk to various women will do wonders for at least giving you opportunities for conversation and “get to know you better” chances.

51

True, i have not done any of those things. What i do is approach a woman i like, look for an excuse to talk to her for a few minutes and guage her reactions. I can take hints and i take no (most women beat around the bush when trying to tell you to get lost, you need to pick up on hints) pretty well and don’t interact with the person after that. I dont know why i reacted that way to A_I_W’s thread. i think she and the others are exaggerating how the men acted around them, but i could be wrong. This is a raw area of my life so i am a bit neurotic.

Thanks for your post, and i’m coming to the conclusion that meaningful social events are my best bet for everything. Even if i don’t meet women in them i’d still prefer to join a few. I’m emailing a doper right now about what events they know about in the bloomington area.

52

I’m willing to bet that this may be part of the problem too. With your expectation of a “no”, you are probably reading signs that aren’t there.

If a stranger approaches me, I’m going to be a little hesitant to talk to him. And I certainly won’t be sending out ask-me-out signals right away. (Hey, I grew up in a big city; you have to prove you’re not a nut first.) I say keep talking until she ends the conversation. If I want out, I’ll say so. You’re correct that I may not say, “I don’t want to date you”. But I will say, “gotta run” or "otherwise clearly end the conversation.

All that being said, I am open to meeting people. It just takes some time to get me to trust your intentions.

53

Why do you identify with this thread? Maybe there’s something you’re not telling us.

Nobody is complaining about being approached by perfectly nice, intelligent, respectable men, which is what you appear to be. When you turn into a deranged nutcase attempting to mate with women on public transport or in the supermarket aisles, then you can accept that all dignity is lost. You’ve got a long way to go yet before you get to that point.

I’m a bit confused by:

What WOULD be productive or dignified? Whether or not it is productive is up to you in the chioces of who you want to date (do you really want to date that person? Do you think there will be a positive outcome to your question? Is she showing signs that she would be interested in dating you?), and dignity is all in your demeanor. There is something inherently undignified in the whole process of dating, and it gets worse if the dating is successful: if you’re having dignified sex, you’re probably doing something wrong.

You’ve been given some really excellent advice for getting involved in activities which are more likely to bring you into contact with likeminded women, but I think this is the best:

54

I’m trying to say that it doesn’t really matter that you don’t say these numbers to them. The fact you’re being so coldly logical about it is almost definitely going to come across in your attitude and words. Not in a “what a standoffish jerk” way, but that you’re not interested in the person you’re talking to, or you’ll have a slight fatalistic and defeatist attitude or expression.

And DrScarlett brings up a damn good point: many (most?) women go a bit on the defensive when a strange man approaches them. I don’t know you, how do I know I can trust you? Even if I find you highly attractive, I am not going to fawn over you or immediately agree to go out with someone I just met. That’s not even really rejection of you, it just means to understand that many times we women have to be a bit paranoid and that if you get to know the woman better, she may very well like to date you.

55

I might be rehashing what others have already said to some degree, but here’s my take on it anyway. FWIW, I feel your pain - I’ve been single for entirely too long lately, but I’m fairly comfortable with it. I know I’m on the right path, and I know why I’m single, and I know what it would take to end it if that were my priority.

First, your negative, “dating’s not worth the trouble” attitude will show through whether you explicitly say it or not. It’ll come across in your tone of voice, your body language, and the off-handed remarks you make without even thinking about it. You have to train yourself not to think like that any more. Every time you hear yourself saying these things in your head, correct it. Seriously. This will work over time.

Second, true confidence is when your opinion of yourself is the only one that matters. If other people are pointing and laughing at you but you know in your heart that you did the right thing, so what? Write 'em off as jackasses and let their scorn roll off your back. The world is full of jackasses and there’s no way to avoid dealing with them. Sometimes they even come in large groups and make you feel like an outsider, or like you did something wrong, but with true confidence you can minimize their effect on your emotional state. Evaluate the “rightness” of your actions based on your own beliefs and attitudes and as long as you’re satisfied that you didn’t screw up, t’hell with what other people think.

OK, now that you have those pesky problems of negative thinking and confidence taken care of (heh), you have to meet women. Enough good advice on this has already been given - find some hobbies and interests and pursue them. Take every opportunity to do so with other people as you can. Hell, take every opportunity for social contact that’s presented to you. Talk to people, both men and women, about the things you care about and that interest you. Make friends. If they’re men, you never know when they’ll introduce you to the woman of your dreams. If they’re women, focus on what you have in common and pursue that. Don’t focus on the “will she date me?” side of things. If she’s not interesting enough to be your friend she’s certainly not going to make a decent life partner, is she?

As far as internet dating goes: I tried this for a while. I had anl ad on Yahoo Personals. For the first 2 or 3 months I got no responses. I contacted a few women who seemed interesting (not many - maybe 3-5) and got no responses back at all. I had a couple women e-mail me at random just to basically tell me what a jerk I was because I didn’t want to date women with kids. But I didn’t give up, and eventually women started contacting me. I don’t know why it took as long as it did, but it worked, and when it did, the floodgates opened. I suddenly had more responses than I knew what to do with. I met a few women, I dated a couple of them, and even fell madly in love once. Not one of those relationships ended up working out. So I decided to back off and focus on myself for a while. But I didn’t give up out of frustration, I made a conscious decision to not pursue a relationship. I’m sure I could have had many more dates, though - after all, it was working. I was meeting people, dating, even having sex! But I was a little emotionally burned out after the whole falling-madly-in-love-and-having-it-end-badly thing and just wanted to back off for a while.

So now I’m working on getting in shape and making money. I figure I’ll find the woman of my dreams when I’m both hot and rich. :wink: But seriously, I’m focusing on myself and my interests right now. If I’m eventually going to find a woman or two to share my life, I’ve got to have a life worth sharing, right? I’m not avoiding dating - I’d be happy to date someone if they came along and it felt right (single Doper gals, this means you!) - but I’m not actively seeking it out right now either.

To answer your first question last, no, there’s not a day that goes by that I don’t constantly see women I find attractive and would love to meet/date/have sex with. It’s made worse by the fact that I have a very broad definition of what’s physically attractive.

56

Wow, that turned out to be a lot longer than I thought. Heh… And to think I left out an important point. Be funny. There’s no quicker way to make someone feel comfortable with you than to make them laugh. I have yet to meet a woman who doesn’t love a guy who can make 'em laugh. If she doesn’t appreciate your sense of humor, she’s certainly not right for you anyway.

57

I’m trying to offer this as constructive criticism, Wesley, so try to take it that way. On the boards, you come across as really, really whiny. Seriously, most of the posts I’ve seen from you are bitching about something or other. Now, I don’t know you in real life, but it’s been my experience that most people here are like their posts suggest. Whining does not signal confidence, or any of the other qualities that women like. You should seriously examine whether that’s part of your problem.

Also, you come across as extremely analytical, which seems to be a turn-off IME. Maybe there’s nothing you can do about it, but you should take a look at that as well. Read some poetry, look at some paintings, watch some art films, that kinda stuff.

These’re small potatoes compared to your negative attitude, which I’ll guarantee is the lion’s share of your problem, but they are other things that contribute.

58

Wesley, what you need to figure out is your GOAL in this dating. You say it isn’t worth it, but what are you trying to achieve? Do you want to get laid? Have a girlfriend? Get married and have kids? Merge two souls into one perfect crystalline drop of ecstasy?

Approaching women or dating women can’t fail a cost-benefit analysis if you don’t specify the benefit you are expecting.

Also, I advise you to give up your notions of dignity.
[pulp fiction]
The night of the fight, you may feel a slight sting. That’s pride fucking with you. Fuck pride. Pride only hurts, it never helps.
[/pulp fiction]

59

What on Earth are you talking about? These days, having a guy slither up to a woman and yell “You wanna piece o’ this??” is about as dignified as it gets.

What I ask myself now is “How come, at the parties I went to, there weren’t any naked ladies giving me double-team oral and making out in front of me like they do in all these candid videos on the net today? Huh? HUH??”

60

What Zephyrine said. In the Pit thread, girls are talking about guys who literally start groping them, literally start drooling over them, or start masturbating without a proper introduction. :rolleyes: Guys who’re agressive, crazy. When we refer to them as creeps, it is because they ARE creeps. You’d think of them as creeps if you met them, too.

We’re NOT talking about guys who come up to us, say hi, and strike up an conversation, and who, stop hittign on us when we indicate we’re not interested. Such guys are not ridiculed. Not when we’re out of junior high, anyway. Why would we want to ridicule a guy and mimimize the compliment he pays us?

If we giggle afterwards, to our girlfriends, we’re NOT ridiculing the guy; were giggling because it’s about sex and that subject causes nervous excitement and nervous excitement causes giggles. Simple, isn’t it? It’s a compliment, in a way.