Well, you could have said “I suppose I don’t really have any evidence she is gay, and she certainly hasn’t ever come out publically, but I used to be a comic and hang out in similair circles, and there it was common knowledge.” Asserting that you know the sexual orientation of everyone in Hollywood seemed totally irrelevant. Had you limited yourself to Paula Poundstone, who, even if you do not know personally you know people who know her, this thread would never had happened–you would have had support for your statement, even if it is sort of weak support. It was expanding that claim to all celebrities everywhere, based not on close aquaintance but on “osmosis” that seemed like bragging.
**
I suppose you don’t mean it, but you say that when Stoid says someone is gay it’s an “allegation.” Isn’t that an implication that being called gay is being called a bad thing?
Perhaps she is indeed making a statement with no facts behind it. But by being so pissed about it you start a Pit thread, and by calling it an “allegation” even while apologizing for sounding homophobic, you are still perpetuation the idea that being gay is bad.
Take her statements, and replace “gay” with, say, Lithuanian. Even though her statements woulld have been exactly as baseless, would you have still started a pit thread? If the answer is no, ask yourself why not.
I don’t believe you are homophobic. But I do think your reaction to her statements perpetuates a homophobic attitude.
I wouldn’t mind hearing a gay person’s take on this. Does what I say make any sense? Or is it just a straight guy talking about stuff he doesn’t understand?
Ooooowie! Some people gets all pissed off about this, ay?
winces
I feel a bit sorry for Stoid getting flamed, though I do think it’s a bit ridiculous to “Know” when someone’s gay…
And it did come off from the initial replies that being gay was a bad thing. But hey, peace and love, people.
I don’t think someone homosexual has responded to this yet.
Will someone openly gay and proud give their two cents about this? That would be interesting.
On another note (I couldn’t help it) when I first walked into this thread, I felt like I had stepped into a 3rd-grade verbal mud-slinging.
“Stoid, you’re so GAY.”
“Nuh huh Airman! At least I don’t like PINK! You FAGGOT!”
“You’re an immature freak…”
“You FAIRY!”
I did, in part. And note that I did so after someone else made the original, casual assertion.
I didn’t do that. Alot, not all everywhere. And so what? To steal Revtim’s analogy, what if I’d said it about their being Lithuanian? Would that have been “bragging”? Is it the knowledge of celebrities that constitutes bragging, whatever that knowledge may be, or is it the knowledge of their sexuality specifically?
It’s just information, Manda Jo, about the people we all see on TV and in movies. I happen to have reams of it. It’s croweded out much more important information, I’m sure. It only paid off for me once, when I was on a game show that was all about celebrity factoids, and I won about $5,000. Aside from that, it’s just flotsom in my head.
stoid
Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt. I have the bad habit of saying things that aren’t fully realized in my own mind before I say them.
For example, even my clarification isn’t very clear. sigh
I think I’ll get flamed for that, and looking back I deserve it.
Anyway, back to Stoid. You just “know”. Well, that just tickles me pink. I just “know” a lot of things, and between that and a quarter I have 25 cents, you get me?
By the way, “generally understood” doesn’t mean “fact”, although you seem to think it does.
Doesn’t it count that I’m gay part time? Granted, it’s been about 8 years since the last time I had sex with a woman, but still…
stoid
Gosh, yes . . . I can see your indignation that other people might think you’re bragging about this quality that’s in the air . . . this knowledge that someone else is gay.
My. but we do read selectively. The post in question, I believe, is by jane_says. Here’s the text in question:
“For some reason, though, I always thought she was gay. Maybe she is?”
Now, I don’t know about the rest of you, but to me this seems like someone (pointlessly, IMHO) wondering aloud if Poundstone’s gay. Not “The general consensus around here that she’s gay, no? I thought everyone pretty much knew that”, as you, Stoid, seem to have gathered.
Incorrect. You stated it as fact with nothing but your “osmosis” to back it up. No television transcript, no interview with Poundstone in which she discusses her sexual orientation, nothing from the media to indicate a blessed thing. Just Stoid saying “Paula Poundstone is gay”. Forgive me for not believing something on the basis of one other person saying it and not providing evidence to back their assertation up.
Gosh, what a rarity . . . someone on this board asks for proof of something when none had been given. I know I’d never expect that from a message board dedicated to fighting ignorance.
Hmm. Does this strike anyone else as bragging?
I understand where you’re coming from here, Revtim. But I think the problem here is that Stoid said something with nothing more to back her up than this osmosis. She has presented no evidence other than “knowing”; no citation, no interview, nothing. If jane_says had said "By the ay, I think she’s Lithuanian. But then . . . ",and Stoid had come in and said “Paula Poundstone is Lithuanian” with nothing to back her up, it probably wouldn’t have resulted in a pit thread because “outing” someone as Lithuanian isn’t regarded with the same disgust as outing someone (truthfully or not) as homosexual (or bisexual, or whatever). It is theirs (Poundstone’s, in this case) to discuss their sexuality if they wish, and none of ours to speculate upon or to say “I just know” and offer nothing more in the way of concrete, “You can read this and it’ll tell you”, proof.
Hmmm. It’s “generally understood” that the following people are straight, but they have never come right out and said so:
Bush
Gore
Micheal Jordan
Magic Johnson
Katherine Hepburn
David Duchovny
Gillian Anderson
Janet Jackson
Regis Philbin
David Letterman
Yet, I very much doubt that you are going to get all offended about my saying so, now are you?
stoid
I would like to say that I am offended. What if they were bi?
actually, not as it was presented, no. It was your opinion about some factual information, which may or may not prove to be ultimately the truth.
and, the level of info involved is different, as well:
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I “knew” 'cause of non-verbal cues and associations that I make when I see them (aka ‘osmosis’) - you may feel that you’re very good at it, maybe you are, but it’s also not ‘information’.
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I “knew” 'cause I ran in the same circles, knew people who knew. This is commonly referred to as gossip. This reminds me of a jr high story. My last name is rather unusual. There was another kid in school with the same last name, we were both short, with light colored hair. Everybody ‘knew’ we were related. Nobody bothered to ask. we weren’t.
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I “knew” 'cause the person involved made a public statement to that effect, have seen documented evidence, etc. this is called information.
especially when the subject is some one’s sexual preference. Just like guessing some one’s ethnic background due to their skin color, one can be roughly correct quite often, which says less than nothing about the correctness of any specific individual guess. But to refer to such ‘guesses/assumptions’ as information, isn’t accurate in the least.
Personally, I object to the idea that homosexuality can only be discussed or accepted as true if openly declared by the person in question. Why? Doesn’t that perpetuate the idea that there is something bad about it? There are gay people who * are generally understood to be gay in the same way that most straight people in the media are generally understood to be straight. * By who they hang out with, their romantic status, a variety of other “clues”. There are other gay people who are very obviously doing everything in their power to disguise it. Paula is one of the former, not the latter. Even in that thread, someone mentioned they had heard her allude to it on the game show she’s on.
I think it’s ridiculous to expect anyone, gay or straight, to * announce * their sexuality in order for us to talk about it. You are starting from an assumption that if someone has not issued a press release declaring that they are gay, then we cannot say anything about whether they are or not, and I think that’s a terrible assumption that puts a terrible burden on gay people and helps perpetuate the idea that there is something fundamentally shameful about being gay. Well, I disagree with you on that.
stoid
Code does not like me today. At all. Starting with “My, but we do read selectively” it should not be italicized.
“Doesn’t it count that I’m gay part time? Granted, it’s been about 8 years since the last time I had sex with a woman, but still…”
There are several bisexual women on this board who have had sex with women. They’ve also had sex with men. Does that make them gay part-time, too?
I was not, FTR, aware that one could be gay part-time. One is either gay or not, far as I have ever read from those in the know. If you’re attracted solely to women and you’re a woman, you’re a lesbian. If you’re attracted to both sexes you’re bi. What you do has little (if any) bearing on this.
And re: people we assume are straight, people in this society generally assume others are straight and wait for evidence to suggest otherwise. Not that this is right.
[sub]Maybe I should just go back to bed.[/sub]
Exactly. (underlining mine)
And what is the difference between gay part time and bisexual? Gay part time: sometimes have gay sex while sometimes having straight sex. Bisexual: sometimes having gay sex, sometimes having straight sex. Difference? I don’t see it.
I only used that term because of the OP.
And I really think everyone needs to mellow out.
stoid
Seems to me that by claiming
you are claiming close ot perfect knowledge about the sexuality of almost everyone in Hollywood.
If you had claimed that you had acess to that knowledge through some sort of secret information channel, yes. I don’t like unsubstainiated and unverifiable claims. I suppose that what really bugs me is that a) you are treating small town rumors as Fact and b) claiming that you have access to these small town rumors in a way that ordinary mortals don’t: ordinary mortals are shocked and suprised, but you always already knew. Iampunha did a good job of isolating the phrases I thought came across as condecending and, well, boastful. If you didn’t want to sound that way, perhaps you should note the effect your words actually have, not the effect you meant for them to have, and make a note of it for the future.
[hijack]iampunha, that there schooling or something is really doing a good job on you. Your posts have been catching my eye more and more often lately[/hijack]
I’m a big fan of useless trivia, but I try and differentiate the useless trivia that I got from a reputable source and the useless trivia I heard from some guy somewhere. And I never publicaly state the stuff I just “picked up” without a hell of a lot of qualifiers because I’ve found I’m wrong more often than not. It is your confidence in your information–information that must have been obtained through rumors–that seems suspect.
No problem. But, I wouldn’t mind you considering the “Lithuanian” question I proposed. Would you have opened a pit thread against Stoid if she said Lithuanian instead of gay? And if no, why not?
Again, I don’t feel you are homophobic. I just think opening this thread, and your attitude (even though you have good intentions) perpetuates the idea that homosexuality is bad, even though that is not your intent.
It’s gossip. Gossip is generally regarded as a bad thing, yes? Not helpful? It’s also a personal matter, sexuality. As in, something that respectful people don’t (or shouldn’t) whisper about. You want to wonder about her? Whatever floats your boat. But when you start saying “Paula Poundstone is gay” as if it’s undeniable fact, you get into personal matters.
“There are gay people who * are generally understood to be gay in the same way that most straight people in the media are generally understood to be straight. * By who they hang out with, their romantic status, a variety of other “clues”.”
And the fact that it happens doesn’t make it right. Lemme give you an example:
I don’t date. I’m single. I hang out with straight people, gay people, bisexual people. I don’t “act” gay, whatever the hell that means.
What’s my sexuality? Can you infer from that information if I’m gay or straight or bi?
It was alluded to after someone started in on “is she gay?” Jeff Olsen gave evidence as to his opinion of her (a television show she’s on), but didn’t say outright “Paula Poundstone is gay”. He said, “She’s alluded to her sexual preferece on To Tell the Truth. Personally, I belive she’s bi.” You, on the other hand, provide absolutely no documentable evidence for your claim other than this “feeling in the air”.
And I think it’s pointless to discuss someone’s sexuality with no evidence to back any of it up. You say you “know”. Point me to a link with the knowledge that lets you know.
Incorrect. I am starting from the assumption that if someone has not told people their sexuality, it is nobody’s business to make idle, wild speculation on it, whatever it’s based on.
And I think it perpetuates the idea that sexuality is none of your business unless that person makes it your business.
It’s her life. Why do you think you have the right to state her sexuality either way? What business of it is yours?
I don’t understand what you mean, though. Are you saying that the fact that a gay man is attracted to other men means everything he does leads to obvious manifesations of his sexuality? I mean, if he walks to the store to buy bagels, does he lick his lips and stare at the crotch of every man he sees? Does he write memos differently? Does he choose a different color car? Does he hold the newspaper a different way? Does he wave to the camera at hollywood premieres in a different way? I know you don’t mean that. That’s what I mean when I say you “can’t tell” and that they don’t act differently.
It’s not “covering it up”. My sexuality, as a straight or a gay person, isn’t an issue except when I’m in the bedroom. Or at a singles bar. If I happen to mention my husband, then it’s a giveaway, just as a gay friend might reveal his preferences in conversation. But generally speaking, I don’t think you can tell, and if you can’t, it doesn’t mean someone is being evasive.
That’s the good ol’ SDMB school of posting. You hang around in places long enough, you learn how to argue effectively. OR at the very least how not to get run over. Thanks for the compliment; consider it mutual:)
The main difference is that in the former, if you’re not gay you’re straight. And adding the two up, you’re both gay and straight, depending on the time. I hope I don’t have to point out to you that it is not possible to be both gay and straight, just as it is not possible to be both the color white and the color black. If you’re in-between, you aren’t both; you’re neither. You’re gray.
If we hold to your definitions, however, I am devoid of sexuality. That’s right: if we are to assume that Stoid’s assertations about sexuality are correct, then I, iampunha, am devoid of all sexuality.
Why, you ask? Because I don’t have sex. I have never had sex. I am a virgin. ::wait for shock to clear the air:: Sexuality, as has been discussed previously on this MB, is not about what one does but what one feels. Remember that GD thread started by puddleglum, something to the effect of “Can Gays go straight? Science says yes”? The results of that study operated under the assumption that being a man and having sex with a woman makes one straight.
It was a joke in the OP. Doors doesn’t actually think that anyone is gay part-time. Trust me; if he did I would have lambasted him for it long ago and he’d have learned the error of his ways. He’s good like that. Learns well and all that stuff.
I am about to commit virtual suicide here. Revtim, I’ll try to strap on your question, since you deserve an answer.
How would I have reacted if she had said “Lithuanian” instead of “gay”?
I would not have started this Pit thread. In that you are 100% correct.
In our society, homosexuality is looked upon very sternly as deviant, unhealthy, unclean, etc.
I don’t espouse those views, but others do. Religious leaders, politicians, average people, and just plain bigots.
When people like Stoid spread rumors about the sexuality of someone, the perception of that person changes in our society. For better or worse.
Someone’s sexuality is their business. Period. Would it make any of you feel better to know that I am sometimes attracted to men? Didn’t think so. But now some of you out there are thinking “Man, that dude’s a fag”. And that bugs the living shit out of me to know that.
And I would spare these people the burden of having to hear millions of people calling them inflammatory and incediary names for no other reason than personal bias.
If Tom Cruise is gay, great. If not, that’s great too.
It is none of my fucking business. Nor is it any of yours.
That’s the issue I have with Stoid. Is that so hard to understand?