Frannie,
One problem with All-Star game appearances - it also depends on your peers and popularity. Look at this year’s game - any of Kent, Alfonzo and Vidro are having better years than any AL 2B - and a guy Baseball Weekly didn’t even put on the team since he was third best AL SS won MVP - and Vizquel, it could be argued, is better than any of the NL guys too.
The reason most of his AB came after 1920 is that Ruth wasn’t a Yankee until 1920. Boston was using him as a pitcher/outfielder still. In 1919 Ruth pitched 133 innings for the Red Sox. The decision was made in 1919 to change the ball before the season was over, which means they would have had to make that decision based on 1918 stats, when Ruth only hit 11 HRs. In 1919, Ruth led the leagues with 29 HRs, a lot for then, but I still don’t think it was so great to change the baseball for one man. It was the Yankees who decided that he was too good a hitter not to bat everyday in 1920, the start of the lively ball era and Ruth hit 54 HRs that year.
Yup, and there is a Best Western or Days Inn (something comparable) right there on I-4 in Haines City that had a big giant picture of Ted Williams painted on the building at the Baseball City exit.
I just want it noted that both Mully and JBurton99 said their catchers “could” be the best ever if they keep up what they are doing now.
Johnny Bench is the best catcher ever and will be until their careers end.
BTW, JBurt, I’m an Upper Darby boy m’self.
And you guys say this sport is called base… What? 
:: ducks, running for cover ::
BratMan007:
HOLY FUCKING SHIT MOTHER OF GOD CHRIST ALMIGHTY I AM YOUR SLAVE FOR LIFE!
That good enough for you?
That said, I have a modest (around 8000 cards) baseball card collection, and basically my claim to fame is 2 OJ rookie cards (football).
BM,
The primary reason Ruth's AB came after 1920 is he only played 5 full years with the BoSox, 15 with NY.
Ruth became primarily an OF in 1918 (59g OF, 20 P) . In 1919 he played OF in 111, 1B in 4, and only pitched in 17. 133 IP is a fair amount today, but Ruth was over 320 in his last 2 full years as a pitcher (1916,1917). The Red Sox made the conversion. He played enough OF to win 2 HR titles for them. (and get this - led the league in strikeouts in 1918 with 58. What does Wilson have so far this year- 120?)Ordonez does indeed make a lot of acrobatic plays, but if you actually look at statistics like “range factor” (which is basically putouts and assists divided by innings played) and “zone rating” (a defensive stat where areas of the field are divided up into ranges of responsibility), if I recall correctly, his statistics are less than outstanding–he was either average or actually below average in one or both. I do believe that Vizquel is outstanding in at least one of those measurements (I apologize, I don’t have my materials handy). I don’t believe they had zone ratings when Smith played, but I might be wrong on this.
I don’t understand why Ordonez doesn’t come out well on the defensive metrics. He sure as hell looks like a great defensive shortstop to me. (By the way, Griffey also comes out low among CFs in these metrics).
Defense is INCREDIBLY difficult to quantify. People, even sophisticated fans, tend to rate defense on how a player looks (“I once saw him make a play where…”), while no one would call Freddie Patek a great power hitter because he once hit 3 homers in a game.
Lurkernomore is absolutely right when he points out that Smith and Vizquel are better hitters. Even when Smith first came up and couldn’t hit, I believe he was putting up comparable numbers when the offensive levels were somewhat lower (meaning that Smith’s numbers relative to the league were somewhat better).
Frannie, the numbers you list are absolutely a good start, though it’s helpful to know what the errors, DPs, assists and putouts were on a “per defensive inning basis” (that info might not have been available). You are NOT a baseball idiot!
(And even if you were, you’re really very cute, so us guys wouldn’t care anyway!)
(Sorry, I’ll flirt ***even in baseball threads ***. I really am a shameless bastard.) 
Brat–congratulations on getting that ball again! You know, I think I’d put up with all the crap you had to put up with earlier in the week if I got a baseball signed by Ted Williams out of the deal!!
Lurker,
This is getting kinda silly. I’m agreeing with you! I just wanted to point out, in support of your argument that Ruth could be the best hitter, that it was the Yankees that made Ruth a full time outfielder, not the Red Sox. I’m agreeing with you that if we give back Ruth those 6 pitching years as a hitter, and if Ruth was hitting the same lively ball that Williams was, that Ruth’s stats would be significantly higher than they are now.
But I don’t have a Babe Ruth autographed baseball, and until I do Williams is the greatest hitter.
BTW, kinda off the topic, but here’s a stat I didn’t fully realize until a few days ago about what a good hitter Hank Aaron was. Aaron has 3771 hits. If you take away all 755 of his HRs, he still has over 3000 hits. How’s that for a combination of getting base hits and hitting for power?
Dry,
A problem with range factor is it is hard to account for the range of your other teammates. I don't know what the RF for, say, a Belanger was, but Brooks would take a lot of balls other 3B let go to the SS. Same with Grich on the other side. Likewise with Schmidt taking Bowa's balls. You are absolutely right it is tough to quantify.
I remember the Patek game - Fenway, IIRC. The first guy to hit 4in a game hit 70 in 7000 AB. Another fluke.
BM,
Another guy in the 3000 hits without HR club is Musial (3630-475). IIRC (Total BB doesn’t have the split) he had a real weird stat too - hits at home/road - 1815/1815
Musial did split his hits evenly between home and away games. Another obscure Musial stat - he has the most HRs of a player who never led his league in HRs.
I have no idea how a statitician can quantify range, so I’m not even getting involved in that.
Just a caution BratMan, but I recall reading (in SI maybe?) about a number of fake Ted Williams’ autographs going around. Williams’ son was supposedly trying to police the matter.
Congratulations Brat. That is pretty darn cool.
I have an autographed baseball too, although it’s not as “valuble” as one signed by Teddy Ballgame.
Mine is signed by the 1971 Detroit Tigers, including HOF’er Al Kaline, and Tiger great - Willie Horton, who’s number the Tigers just retired today. It’s actually worth more to me, because
A) I’m from Detroit, and love my Tigers, and B) The ball was my Grandpa’s, and after he died last year, it was given to me.
Oh, and after it’s all said and done, Omar Vizquel, and Ivan Rodriguez will be considered the best ever, at their repective positions. Johnny Bench…sheesh…I’m too young to have seen him play, but Joe Morgan reminds me EVERY broadcast about how great Bench was…blah blah blah…the Big Red Machine…we were the greatest…etc. We get the point Joe.
I’d rant and rave about some of the brutally biased assertions made here, but I guess you gotta pull for the home team.
The ball is a find, and probably not an investment, but something a fan enjoys. That makes all the difference. Congrats.
I’ll share, I am expecting a autographed Ernie Bank’s ball shortly. A prize matched by only Jordan, Butkus, and Payton in these parts. It’ll have a prominent place in my display.
Zion, you’re missing one very important fact. Joe Morgan is a total fucking moron.
BratMan, congrats about the ball! That is awesome! My mom worked for the Giants for years and could have gotten great deals on all sorts of cool memorabilia. But did she? Nooooo, of course not! ::grumbles::
Zion, remember one thing: Omni has no idea what he’s talking about. (Omni, you know I love you and all, but come on!) Joe is incredibly knowledgable about baseball. He won back to back MVPs, and he’s in the Hall of Fame. When he says that Johnny Bench was the greatest catcher of all time, I take him seriously. Of course, he’s biased, having been his teammate for all those years. Personally, I never saw him play, so I don’t really have an opinion on the subject. I think the Josh Gibson nomination is a very valid one. Sure, we don’t have all the statistics as clearly as we might like, but even if that 972 is off by as much as two hundred, that’s STILL seventeen more than Henry Aaron ever hit. AND he did it all in a short span of time. “Shame” is the right word to describe the unfortunate circumstances that didn’t allow him to play in the majors.
Exactly. And so is Costas.
Feh.
Did you hear Morgan keep referring to the AL as “The Yankees” during the All-Star Game? Pathetic. Someone should put us out of our misery, and get the man a job broadcasting ping-pong ball tournaments.
Zion wrote:
In Omar’s case, you’re about three years behind the times. See, there’s this guy named Alex Rodriguez. Yeah, I know–no one’s ever heard of him because he plays for a west coast team. Even though this team of his is the second best in the AL, it never gets any recognition from the media, who fawn on all that is East coast. So no one’s ever heard of poor Alex.
And Bratman–I hate to steal your moment of glory, but I, too, have an autographed baseball.
Signed by none other than–don’t faint, folks–The Great Brian Holman. Yeah, I know. Don’t feel too bad–not all of us can be so lucky. But your Ted Williams autograph is very nice too.
And no, I’m not selling.
In my honoured opinion, Gehrig was best all time baseball player. Think of what he might have done if it wasn’t for the damned disease.
I’m going to have to check my sources, but I believe you are wrong here, Lurkernomore. If I recall correctly, Bill James pointed out that Brooks Robinson, Bobby Grich and Mark Belanger all led their respective positions in range factor during the time they played together in the Baltimore infield.
It’s true that there are indeed some “influences” on range factor–such as flyball pitchers, “handedness” of opposing hitters, ballpark effects, etc. But I believe that Bill James studied the issue and found that such external factors did NOT have large effect, and that if a player had a good range factor with one team and one set of teammates, he tended to keep his superior range factor when traded.
I agree with Kyla. Morgan doesn’t come off as the greatest sports announcer, sure, but he was an incredibly intelligent baseball player. He was legendary for sensing pitchouts when baserunning–he’d almost never run into one, but would stand there with his hands on his hips and not try to steal. On the field, he was gifted but also made the most of his abilities by smarts and hard work.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Kiva *
**
Agreed. A-Rod may be the greatest shortstop of all time before he’s finished. However, if something should happen to him, Jeter and Nomar would push for that title as well.
Re: Bench. Sometimes Morgan should just shut up. On this case he happens to be right. However, he can just be right and not keep pounding the point.
Kyla, part of the problem with Gibson’s HRs barnstorming is the competition, not the count, They were playing town teams, etc. That’s why the number is questionable. The Negro Leagues had high quality players, but the town teams…
Vizquel is maybe the 4th best SS in the AL right now, how can he be the best? Irod isn’t as good as Bench. Bench had more power and better selectivity at the plate.
I know about the fakes and how easy it is to get suckered when buying an autograph, that’s why I’ve gotten most of mine from players I’ve actually met. But I know the guy that sold me this one and there are pictures of the owner of the shop (the same guy selling me the bal) shaking hands with different players framed around the store and Ted Williams was one of the players that he had his pic taken with. I decided to take a chance on it.