Tyler, MC obviously has all the answers when it comes to pet behavior modification. People like you and me and all those trained professionals just might as well bow to this greater knowledge.
Torq, if you want to view smell the way you described in your last post, then you would agree that you smell too? When I walk into someone’s house, I always notice a certain smell, animals in the house or not. I mean, everyone and everything has a certain smell to it!
Oh, come on! If the day ever comes that I am afraid to turn my back on a cat someone please put me out of my misery! Aren’t we going a little too far here? This certainly doesn’t sound like “abuse” to me.
Also, Michelle,
I don’t know who these “trained professionals” are, but I can name some “professionals” who might take a different stance on this position, particularly B.F. Skinner. If you are not familiar with operant conditioning, you may want to check him out.
“Teaching without words and work without doing are understood by very few.”
-Tao Te Ching
Trained professionals being people who are animal behavioralists, animal trainers, veterinarians. Look, everyone has an opinion. You wanna yell and whack your animals on the head? Fine. In my opinion, actions like that suck, plain and simple. As someone who spends time around people I believe know a bit more about animal training and behavior than other people in general, I am aware that there are alternate methods of training. Alternate methods that appeal to me a heck of a lot more than those involving yelling and hitting. I respect my pets and would not treat them that way.
I won’t comment on this further, there does not seem to be a point. I view my pets in a totally different way than some of you people here. We shall never see eye to eye. You can think I am crazy if you wish. I think I have made it clear I don’t agree with a lot of what was said here, and I never will.
:::::::::::fighting the urge to smack the hell out of anyone who smacks an animal::::
Mom always said there’d be days like this…she just never said there’d be so MANY of them!!!
cat [1] (noun)
Any carnivorous mammal of the family Felidae, including the true cats - lion, tiger, jaguar, leopard, puma, and domestic cat - and the cheetah (qq.v.).
(Encyclopedia Britannica, 1986)
cat [1] (noun)
1 b : any of a family (Felidae) of carnivorous usu. solitary and nocturnal mammals (as the domestic cat, lion, tiger, leopard, jaguar, cougar, wildcat, lynx, and cheetah)
(Merriam-Webster Dictionary, 1999)
Never forget that housecats are closer to “wild” than they are to “domesticated.”
If I may paraphrase Michelle (and frankly, of any of us, she oughta know): “You’ll catch more flies with honey than you will with vinegar.” This old maxim has strong basis in fact, and applies to just about any creature you can name. Seigfried and Roy know what Michelle and Andrea and I know (and you don’t): animals/cats respond better to kindness, respect, love, and positive reinforcement than they ever have/will to aggression, violence, and pain (or threats, thereof).
Seigfreid and Roy put their animal training/behavior “theories” (positive vs. negative reinforcement) to the test with 1000±lb. lions and tigers every day. I dare you (or your cherished BF Skinner) to do the same.
Understanding, acceptance, and affection work. Aggression doesn’t. The facts bear this out.
Deal with it.
StoryTyler
I am too in shape! :::muttering::: Round is a shape.
C’mon up and see me sometime.
Do litter boxes smell after they’ve been used? Of course. Do cats smell? That depends on what you mean. I can’t tell a home has cats by the smell, unless the litterbox has been used recently. I can tell a home has a dog the moment the door is opened, sometimes before. I CAN smell a cat, with my nose pressed against its fur. But it’s not a “cat” smell. Every cat smells differently. This is no different from people. People smell, and every person smells differently. Some of it is perfume, shampoo, soap, etc, but if everyone used the same products, they’d still smell differently. Just as I know who’s talking to me, without seeing them, by the sound of their voice, I know which cat is crying, by the sound of ITS voice. Just as you can tell a person by their walk, the weight, the pace, the breathing, the jingle of car keys, or money, the sound of a door closing, I can tell one of my cats by the sound of it walking, its weight, its pace, its breathing, the sound it makes when it scratches at a door or window, wanting in or out.
And counters…my cats don’t jump up on the counters. They used to. Every time they did it, I picked them up and gently set them down on the floor. And they’d jump up again. And I’d pick them up again, and I’d put them down again. And they’d jump up again. And I’d put them down again. Yes, it took a lot of time, but they don’t jump up on the counters anymore. I know they don’t, because if I leave the kitchen for 15 minutes, and there’s meat on the counter, and a cat in the kitchen, the meat is still there, untouched, when I get back. The same can’t be said for, say, a dining room table, but we just eat sitting on the couch, without any kind of table, so it doesn’t matter. The cats scratch the couch, yes. However, my cats go outside, so they aren’t trying to sharpen their claws, and the only time they scratch is when someone is in the room. They do it to get attention, and as soon as they have it, they stop scratching, and proceed to try and tell you what it is they want. Usually, it’s something along the lines of “I want out” “I’m hungry”; or “Pet me”; “Pet me some more”; “You didn’t pet me enough, pet me again”; “Now let me sit on your lap and stretch out and kneed your breasts with my sharp claws”… Why they can’t just meow to get our attention, I don’t know, but our furniture shows no signs of claw marks.
Um. Uh oh. I seem to have lost track of whatever it was I meant to say. I really shouldn’t try to write things like this at 2am. Um. I hope whatever it is I just wrote makes sense to somebody, because I can’t understand any of it right now. I’m fairly certain I meant to say more stuff, but I can’t seem to remember that either. Here’s hoping it’ll all make sense to me again in the morning…
Dangit. I know I had a point when I started…
Sigh. Methinks I should go back to lurking and not trying to post in the middle of the night. Oh. The room is spinning. Yes, definitely past my bedtime.
The Minty One
I think I left out the bit about being able to tell the difference in smell of both people and cats that I’m close to. Or something along those lines. But, um, nevermind. I think I’ll just…go away…now…
The Minty One
Dem: You have officially dropped ten notches on my favorite chatters list :). Anyway, it doesnt take much to clean the bacteria from those counters kitty has walked on you know 
(Shame on you, big time hospital person LOL). Also, if youre so worried about dog hairs all over your couches, etc, get a dog that doesnt shed (noticeably) (There are some out there, i forget which types though).
Gee…yer even more anal about cleanliness than I thought!
<sigh>…Setting myself up for hate and discontent here.
I view disiplining my cat the same way I view disiplining my child. I don’t yell at him, or beat him sensless. I swat him on the nose while saying “NO!” in a firm voice…I only had to do that the first couple of times he did something wrong…now when I say NO, he knows to stop doing whatever it is he’s up to. If you want to take an hour to keep carefully setting your cat on the floor after he jumps up on the table, fine. I swatted my cat on the nose, said NO once, and he doesn’t do it anymore…
My cat doesn’t claw the furniture, or tear things apart. He plays with his toys, scratches his post, and loves to cuddle with me. I think that you’re thinking in extreams too much…Just because I give my child a swat on the ass doesn’t make me a child beater…same applies to my cat.
MC, Atrael, you are totally right. Conditioning works well with all animals, it is probably the closest thing, that you can provide, to the Trial and Error learning they would have if they lived in the wild, and discipline is a million miles away from cruelty. I have a rather timid tom and it has worked just fine, he doesn’t even think about digging his claws into the carpet anymore and he doesn’t run and hide when I get home either. On the contrary, the only thing I haven’t been able to stop him doing is scratching the inside of the front door when I come home because he can hear me climbing the stairs and he’s just so damn happy to see me. He may be nursing some hidden grievance, but is the softest, cuddliest, most affectionate cat there ever was and I don’t live in daily fear that he is going to jump me from the bookshelf and disembowl me or something. Out of “…the domestic cat, lion, tiger, leopard, jaguar, cougar, wildcat, lynx, and cheetah…” a house cat is the former and can be quite easily recognised by looking at a picture of one next to a picture of any of the others, the difference is really quite pronounced.
Yes, Michelle, I agree that people (which includes me) have a smell too, but usually I don’t notice people-smell unless it’s truly rank (because they haven’t bathed in a considerable while) or I’m extremely near them.
Ok, this is going to sound really stupid, but I give my cat “time-outs”.
If she is doing something she is not supposed to be doing (let’s say clawing the couch), I say “Minx, no” very loudly, take her feet off the couch and put them on the floor. If she leaves them on the floor, I praise her; if she goes for the couch again, I do the no thing again - after the third no, she gets put in the bathroom (I have a VERY large bathroom and her litter box is there, so that has always seemed like the best place to put her). I only leave her there for a couple of minutes, but that’s enough - she is really attached to me and hates to be separated from me.
I sometimes use the squirt bottle - but that doesn’t always work - the dumb cat likes water.
This method hasn’t stopped her from doing all “bad” things, but it’s helped.
I would never hit my cat. Because, I’d have to be really angry to be prompted to hit her, and she’s only 10 pounds. I’m afraid that I’d hit her harder than I meant to and hurt her. Well, that, and, I can’t really think of anything that she could do that would get me that angry. She’s not even a year and a half old - that’s still a kitten in my book. Besides that, she’s really smart (she plays fetch for goodness sake!)she’s not being bad because she doesn’t know any better, she’s being bad because she is a spiteful little bitch (like her mommy :)) and is trying to get my attention or get back at me for something (like hogging all of the shrimp) - you really can’t hit someone for that.
There’s no snooze alarm on a hungry cat. =^…^=
Torq,when you go to your friend Joe’s house, don’t you notice a certain smell? one that is different from the smell in your friend Mike’s house? Or your grandmother’s? What you are smelling is THEM. Maybe I notice it more because I am female (I hope you are a guy), and i think we discussed women having a stronger sense of smell then men. people don’t have to smell BAD to have a smell. Am I making sense?
Wow. I so don’t like you.
Anyone who can be that relentlessly anti-pet, especially anti-dog, is a cold, selfish, anal, heartless person that I have no use for whatsoever.
My Maggie is an ANGEL, and obviously a MUCH more lovable creature than YOU.
(Maggie is my Golden Retriever, 3 years old, that I rescued a month or so ago. She is PERFECT. She is incredibly bright, sweet, loving, beautiful, and has better manners than most people I know. Anyone who couldn’t love this dog is beneath consideration.)
I know it may LOOk like I’m not doing anything, but at the cellular level, I’m actually quite busy,
My only comment is: If someone in MY house (resident or guest) hit one of my animals, they’de better have some good running shoes on. I hit much harder then they could imagine.
I have had several complete morons ask me why I don’t hit my birds when they chew something they shouldn’t. (by the way, there is NO quicker way to make a bird hate you. You aren’t EVER supposed to act at all aggressive toward them)
Love is like popsicles…you get too much you get to high.
Not enough and you’re gonna die…
Click here for some GOOD news for a change Zettecity
I’m sorry, Zette, I think (hope) I misunderstood you. I believe I read that people suggested that you hit your bird? Holy, cow. What kind of monster would suggest that?
Michelle, you keep asking essentially the same question, I must not be being clear enough.
Yes, I agree that people have a smell. Yes, I agree that they smell different from each other.
I don’t mind the smell of most people. I strongly dislike the smell of cats. In much the same way, I agree that roses and rancid milk both have aromas, but I’d rather smell one than the other.
I realize that to someone like you this may be like saying “I hate the taste of chocolate; white chocolate is so much better” but it’s the truth (the cats, not the chocolate!).
I’m not overfond of the smell of dogs, but it doesn’t bother me quite the way cats do. Of course, dogs will go out of their way to make themselves smell even worse (“I found something dead! Doesn’t it smell WONDERFUL? I rolled in it for several hours this afternoon so that you could enjoy it too! Aren’t I clever? Pet me!”). As far as I know cats don’t do that.
Minx,
I have had several people suggest it (I have one big bird and one small one). They think a “smack on the beak” would get them to stop chewing things they aren’t supposed to. Dumbasses. I hope they do it someday to someone elses bird and end up missing a finger.
Zette
Love is like popsicles…you get too much you get to high.
Not enough and you’re gonna die…
Click here for some GOOD news for a change Zettecity
Okey-dokey, we have several issues going here:
My 2 bits on the topic (inflation):
sense of smell is highly invididual, in both acuity and preference. What offends one may not faze another, e.g. perfume, body odors, food smells, etc.
the actual degree of “germiness” is up for discussion. IMO, animals just aren’t significant vectors for disease compared to daily contact w/ the various secretions and vapor emitted by fellow homo sapiens. (Pets shed? Do you take off your shoes before walking on carpets? Are those the same shoes you wore on pavement where people spit and sometimes piss? Were those pavements far removed from any wind currents that carry said “matter” from affected pavements?)
hitting house pets is wrong and needless. I agree w/ Zette, anyone who takes a swipe at any of my animals had better be wearing damn fast track shoes. Companion animals want to please people! It’s a matter of communicating; using cruelty to address confusion is stupid.
In my experience, a quick loud noise and stern “NO!” establishes dominance quite well.
Factor in some mischief, playfulness and stubborness, and you have a wonderful, loving relationship with another species.
Human member of a happy pack,
Veb
Umm, was this addressed to me?? There was no reference to any of the posters and, since I initiated this thread, I can only assume it was. If not, ignore the following: 
stoidela,
As for your not liking me, who cares? I didn’t come here seeking your friendship. Anti-pet, cold, selfish, heartless: Nope, wrong on all counts. Check with some of the people here who know me. Anal: Maybe a little, but not to a fault as far as I’m concerned. As for your dog being much more loveable than me, I’m sure you do prefer something that you can talk at instead of to. I say this because, either you haven’t read or haven’t tried to comprehend the nature of my previous posts. Your dog has better manners than many? Unfortunately, I would have to agree, even without seeing the animal. Etiquette ain’t what it used to be; although your statement does not apply to me. “Beneath consideration” for what? The stoidela happy friends hall of fame? Who gives a flying rats ass?
OK, ok, so, it’s Friday, and I’m in a fightin’ mood. Bring it on!
“Teaching without words and work without doing are understood by very few.”
-Tao Te Ching