I hope you come out of Iraq alive, but before you do, kindly go fuck yourself.

The BBQ Pit
41

Holy. Crap.

Your statement is indeed a definition - it is the definition of numb-skullery.

I support a football team (Arsenal, if you’re interested). I want them to win, obviously. And I admit at times I look at them with rose-tinted glasses - i’m less willing to admit that one of my players has committed a foul than the opposition, even when inside i’ll be thinking “Yeah, fair enough, that was a foul”.

On the other hand, you knuckle-dragging buffoon, when one of the players on my team commits an obvious foul - either to create an advantage for himself, or just out of spite at currently losing, then i’m yelling at the TV for a sending off with the best of them. Guess what? I’m biased, and while I know that’s wrong, that’s something that tends to come with support. My bias towards my team will only go so far, though. I’m interested in whatever cause or ideals you support, because clearly (as any bad act means you support that, too) your causes are without flaw or imperfection. How noble you must be.

Interesting. My sarcasm detector has overloaded again. That usually only happens when someone agrees with Iskander.

I’m sorry to reduce the war on Iraq to such simple terms in my allegory, btw. I’m fully against the war, and also British, but I support the US (and other coalition troops) in Iraq - they’ve been put on a foolish cause by your moronic president, our arselicking PM, and other leaders across the globe - however, they’re soldiers, and as long as they act with honour, and as long as they try to make the best of the bad situation they’ve been placed in, good for them. There will inevitably be bad apples - and they’re arses. But supporting the whole does not mean I support all the individuals.

Der Trihs, I would add you to my ignore list, but then I would sadly miss the fantastic broad brush you carry around with you. It must have cost you a pretty penny - <joke-setup> i’ve never seen a head that wide! </joke-setup>

42

On the other hand, if you don’t support our troops, then by definition you support the sale of our virginal daughters to depraved pornographers who will addict them to black tar heroin and film them having intimate relations with a surprisingly large variety of livestock. So I guess we know where you stand on white slavery and bestiality, wether you choose to admit it or not.

43

I want everyone to take a second look at this quote, and remember the guy who said it. When you see this person in other threads, remember what he said in this thread, and draw the appropriate conclusions.

44

This doesn’t make sense to me. If you do duty and hard work for a good cause, it’s good. If you do duty and hard work for a bad cause, it’s bad. It seems dissonant to say that the war is bad, but the fact that people are putting so much elbow grease into making it happen is good.

This seems to me one of the prime problems with passive support of the war-- people excise concepts like loyalty, duty, hard work, etc. from their contexts and treat them as inherently good. Loyalty itself is morally neutral. The cause one is loyal to dictates its morality.

45

Yeah, naive. That’s what I must be. As well as directly commissioned. Except for my enlisted experience. Oh, but you didn’t know about that. Or anything about my political leanings. Which you also don’t know anything about. And honey, I’m “ma’am” to you whether we’re civilian or military.

46

I heard NPR’s Talk Of The Nation today, and they had a section on the USO’s support for the troops. Al Franken has just returned from his sixth USO tour, and he dropped by the show to talk about the USO. He was asked if it wasn’t a paradox for Franken, who opposes the war, to go on a USO tour. He answered, "We learned a lot of things from the Vietnam War. The one lesson that everybody agrees on is that you can’t blame the troops for bad policy."

His first tour was to Kosovo, which he thought was a good idea. He also went to Afghanistan, and he thought that war was a good idea. He thoroughly disagrees with the war in Iraq, but he continues to entertain the troops there. He does not accept payment for it. He said, “They give you a per diem, but I’ve never even looked at the checks. I always hand them right back.”

Here’s something that was written before I was born. “Naturally, the common people don’t want war, but they can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. Tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and endangering the country. It works the same in every country.” –Herman Goering, Hitler’s Reichmarschall, at the Nuremberg Trials

47

Portia
I thought that poem sounded familiar and I remember it being mimeographed[sup]1[/sup] and passed around my High School during the Vietnam War. Yes, I’ve been trying to narrow that down too. I remember at the bottom of the page it mentions: “written by a soldier 1 week before being killed outright by a grenade”. (serious paraphrasing by me).
I wonder if it was an Urban Legend (long before the term was even coined)?
1 - I’m old

48

Not a good analogy, unless your team slaughters the opposition and burns down their homes.

That makes no sense at all.

What ? That I refuse to give someone a moral get out of jail free card because they are Americans in uniforms and the people they murder/rob/torture/rape are dark skinned foreigners without uniforms ? That I refuse to pretend to approve of such people just because I’m supposed to ? That I’m unwilling to lie ?

Precisely.

49

Arsenal? No. Millwall, on the other hand… :stuck_out_tongue: And I believe it’s a good analogy. Just like war, in other circumstances we tend to support “our” side to a certain point, but there’s a line that, if crossed, will earn our condemnation.

Seriously though, what the hell? Are you saying every single troop out there will, if given the chance, run rampant and carefree, shooting whomever they come across?

I’m trying to understand your position, here. I’m hoping you don’t believe every troop out there is a sadistic bastard (or bitch, it’s equal oppurtunities hatred). I’m assuming you believe that MOST troops are sadistic. Thus it would be fair to punish them all, because it is better to punish them all (those you consider innocent as well as the guilty) because, overall, you’re doing the “good” thing. Is that right?

I’m afraid things aren’t always that black and white, LP. You can do good things for a bad cause ( for example, giving food and support to aid a group in trouble, so that you can gain their allegiance to make war on another) and bad things for a good purpose ( killing people so that they in turn will not kill innocents). The troops currently out there were sent on what I believe to be false pretences. However, they are there now - and while they’re there (as they must be, so ordered from the CinC) i’d prefer that they help, rather than hinder, the people there. Raping and pillaging? Torture? Bad. It does not get my support. Hunting down of suicide bombers? Guarding people voting? Good. It gets my support. I believe that, in general, the coalition forces in Iraq lean towards the latter rather than the former type of activities. So they have my support. The minority, who commit the “bad” acts, I do not support.

50

One can only hope the line isn’t as far out as My Lai or Abu Ghraib. One could wish that neither of those names had ever burned their way into our consciousness – not only for what happened, but for the attempts of certain factions to excuse or deny their existence or implications.

In the black-and-white cartoonland of the loony left fringe, yes. Just like anyone who doesn’t wholeheartedly support the current administration is a surrender-eating cheese monkey traitor in looney-right-land.

Look, why are you insisting on nuance and gray areas and context? The world is all black and white, right and wrong, you’re with us or against us, my way or the highway. Get with the program! :stuck_out_tongue:

51

Goddamn monkey traitors!

52

So every soldier in Iraq murdered, robbed, tortured and raped someone? Don’t you think there are at least one or two guys over there who never killed or raped anyone? Are you really that fucking stupid? You’re about as stupid as a guy who says every muslim is a terrorist because, well, some muslims crashed a plane into the World Trade Center. More stupid, because you’re not really as stupid the other guy but you say the stupid thing anyway. And that’s stupider than if you were really that stupid. You have to be just a bit smart to be really really stupid, and you certainly qualify.

How’s this on for size. People who rob, murder, torture and rape are bad, M’kay, doesn’t matter if they wear an American uniform or no uniform, are dark skinned or light skinned. Even a smart guy like you can understand that, right? People who cover up for robbery, murder, torture and rape are also bad, although a bit less bad than the actual R/M/T/R’ers.

So every Muslim is bad because we know some Muslims drive planes into office buildings, so every Muslim deserves death. Every US soldier is bad, because we know some US soldiers tortured prisoners at Abu Graib, so every US soldier deserves death.

Yep, only you could be that stupid. Congratulations.

53

Tragically, no one person has that monopoly.

54

bluethree, I understand the difference in supporting the troops and supporting the war, and I have no trouble in wanting all our our women and men to return safely. But I want to ask you some questions about your post.

Did you not find this in people who attended college? What about teachers, doctors, social workers, and others who provide a service?

What was it that people in the Army believed in that was greater than themselves?

Do you think this is truer of people in the military service than it is of college students or others in general?

I can’t think of many jobs where people are as physically well-trained as a person is in the military. But I think that being pushed to one’s psychological limits is a dangerous thing. We have too many that are coming back that have been pushed beyond their limits.

Why do you take such pride in fighting to defend people’s rights and then have so much disdain for those who disagree with you?

55

Of course not, but too many people use body counts as a direct indicator of whether or not a war was justified that’s a ludicrous idea, and one I don’t like. It’s also incorrectly used as an indicator of military success most of the time.

56

This doesn’t even upset me. It’s born out of such unimaginable ignorance that there’s really no need to even give much notice to what you’ve said, just to point out how ignorant you are for having said it.

57

This may be the dumbest thread I’ve ever seen.

In response to Blalron, members of the United States military defend you simply by existing. Whether they are stationed in Germany, Iraq, or in the continental United States. Military protection needs to be vigilant, and it’s necessary even when we aren’t being actively invaded. When in the military you sacrifice many of the rights you’re guaranteed as an American citizen. And you’ve agreed to fight and die to defend the United States.

It’s like saying a police officer is only providing protection from crimes when he’s actually cuffing a criminal, that isn’t the case, he provides a blanket of protection simply by existing and walking his beat.

In response to the rest of the “no respect” for American soldiers crowd, I offer a blanket response to all of your posts. Most people serving in Iraq joined the military long before we went into Iraq, they have no choice in being there, so to say you don’t wish to actively support them just because they are involved in a conflict you disagree with is abjectly stupid, and makes you ignorant of the responsibilities of a soldier and how important it is that they follow those responsibilities. Political leaders opted to start the war in Iraq, the President and the Congress, as citizens of the United States collectively we all bear responsibility for being in Iraq, so trying to divorce yourself from the war and its soldiers is just wishful thinking.

And, most of you are already confirmed as being mentally ill, lacking in logic, and possibly even retarded. If you were, you’d recognize that right or wrong, now that we are in Iraq any active opposition to what we’re doing there is just guaranteed to inflict more harm on the Iraqi people, which makes all of you mini-Saddam Husseins in that you’re just trying to screw over the Iraqi people to score political points against people you dislike back home.

58

Not this old line again.

Remeber, kiddies:

War is Peace!
Freedom is Slavery!
Ignorance is Strength!

59

Martin Hyde, the three middle paragraphs of your last post I agree with. The first is a matter of opinion and the last is hogwash.

60

Back to the OP.

The friend in question will need some friends once he gets to the service, and spouting off on politics of any stripe won’t win you many buddies. Most younger soldiers are pretty apolitical.

I think the message will get through to him pretty fast to moderate his delivery at least.