"I identify as an Apache attack helicopter"

[SamuelA]

@Ronald_Raygun

I notice you didn’t answer any of my relatively straight-forward questions, like “What privileges do I have as a trans woman?” or “How will being a transsexual help me find a job when many people I know have been fired for being trans?”, and instead want to retreat to Utilitarianism 101. Why is that?

OK, B. So I derive some amount of utility from being called “she”. And everyone else loses some amount of utility. How do you measure utility? I mean, you’re using the figure 1/249. I presume you can measure it to within 0.4% of… something?

You know, I don’t know why I’m even bringing averages up. See, epistemologically, you have absolutely no idea what it’s like to be trans. Being called “he” will kill me (A), and I assign my death a utility of -∞. And even if you dispute that, there’s a concept of gender euphoria, which I experience when you call me “she”. And that feels like melding with the fucking Godhead. I understandably assign it a utility of +∞. So quite frankly, the other 249 of you can eat me. My gain in utility far outweighs your paltry finite losses in utility.

Ok, so I found your post well reasoned and you clearly have put far more effort into this than I have. I’m just snipping down to the most interesting bits.

First, the general problem with discrimination - I work in a field where it’s considered totally accepted to start outright age discrimination at particularly arbitrary ages. (some people say it’s 35) It’s a field that does change fairly rapidly over time but I have a vested interested in seeing all non work performance related discrimination be seriously reduced.

And the “at will” bullshit that certain conservative states have enshrined in their law - many of the same backwards states passing bathroom bills as part of trans discrimination - means employees have minimal protection against outright discrimination. The boss can just write down your performance as a subjective metric and then fire anyone they don’t like. “Protected classes” don’t provide any meaningful protection if an employer doesn’t have to actually justify why they fired someone. (instead, you can try to sue, and it’s up to *you *to try to prove they fired you for unlawful reasons)

So this is a clear cause I can get behind. If laws preventing employment discrimination for all non-performance reasons could be constructed, and if those laws also protected cis white males in their 50s and 60s, there is a ton of support for this.

I’m going to also comment that the fact you’ve been physically attacked in the men’s room is can be taken as an argument for the other position - maybe there is a reason women don’t want men in the women’s restroom. Enough of them are violent, short sighted thugs that this causes real problems.

I didn’t know you received a positive reward for “passing” as a woman.

I will comment that you can’t use infinities even on paper - human minds are finite value systems. There is a “range max” that is the highest pleasure or pain you can register, and it isn’t infinite. We don’t know what that max is in measurable, objective terms but we know the underlying components that make up a brain do have mins and maxes.

Since we can’t even measure the difference between “burned to death” and “papercut” for pain levels objectively - nobody has a validated algorithm for an fMRI or other piece of objective measurement equipment - this is academic. So you definitely can’t measure to 1 part in 250, all I meant was that basing morality and laws on collective opinion really screws rare individuals like yourself.

One final comment: I know you are used to a lot of bigotry and discrimination. Hence your safe assumption that I’m just another bigot. But, frankly, while I may be parroting some of their arguments in their thread, I find it an obvious error to be taking the side of the ignorant residents of Alabama and the congregation of Westboro Baptist Church. I’m just trying to explore why it’s an error in this thread.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@SamuelA

One final comment: I know you are used to a lot of bigotry and discrimination. Hence your safe assumption that I’m just another bigot. But, frankly, while I may be parroting some of their arguments in their thread, I find it an obvious error to be taking the side of the ignorant residents of Alabama and the congregation of Westboro Baptist Church. I’m just trying to explore why it’s an error in this thread.

Dude, you’re not just parroting bigoted arguments, you’re making and developing them yourself. Again, you need to be taking responsibility for your own choices. You could be choosing to behave otherwise.

[Slash1972]

@SamuelA

As the link states, transexuals need not do anything to establish their new gender identity. They need not take any steps at all.

@SamuelA

Because it’s really difficult to fake.

These two statements seem to contradict each other.

[SamuelA]

@Slash1972

These two statements seem to contradict each other.

Bathroom privileges apparently require nothing, while expecting Google to favor you in an interview would require the interviewers being convinced you are trans.

[Ravenman]

@SamuelA

Bathroom privileges apparently require nothing, while expecting Google to favor you in an interview would require the interviewers being convinced you are trans.

"You needed that job…
and you were the best-qualified. But they had to give it to a minority… because of a quota for queers! Is that really fair?

(we know that the guy in the video is cis because of the lumberjack shirt.)

[Slash1972]

@SamuelA

Bathroom privileges apparently require nothing, while expecting Google to favor you in an interview would require the interviewers being convinced you are trans.

I’m curious what proof you think Google would require in this situation.

Also, just to note, I’m still flabbergasted that people are still going on and on about bathrooms.

[ElvisL1ves]

@Ravenman

"You needed that job…
and you were the best-qualified. But they had to give it to a minority… because of a quota for queers! Is that really fair?

Well, *you *could have gone that way too - it’s just a lifestyle choice, right?

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@SamuelA

Bathroom privileges apparently require nothing

Hold up–do you mean they require nothing for cis folk, or for trans folk?

[bengangmo]

@Miller

This is a stupid response, because the point of the “I identify as an attack helicopter,” is not to make a claim about oneself, it is to denigrate trans people. It’s supposed to be a ridiculous statement. By pointing out that its ridiculous, you are supporting their actual point, which is that it’s “ridiculous” for a man to “pretend” to be a woman.

Don’t play into their rhetorical trap.

I wanted to come out of hiding (since 2002!) to address this.
The first time I saw this was earlier this week in school survey regarding traffic congestion (posted by a student)
The way I read it was exactly the opposite to what you’re saying - it (at least in that usage) was poking fun at the survey designer / trying to be funny.
i.e - if you’re going to ask a ridiculous, irrelevant question, then I’m going to give you a nonsensical answer - I’m not buying into your idea that gender matters.

[Shodan]

@DarrynJohnston

I wanted to come out of hiding (since 2002!) to address this.
The first time I saw this was earlier this week in school survey regarding traffic congestion (posted by a student)
The way I read it was exactly the opposite to what you’re saying - it (at least in that usage) was poking fun at the survey designer / trying to be funny.
i.e - if you’re going to ask a ridiculous, irrelevant question, then I’m going to give you a nonsensical answer - I’m not buying into your idea that gender matters.

Welcome back from hiding, but I don’t think this quite addresses Miller’s point. AIUI, the idea is that you can’t argue “it’s ridiculous to say you are an attack helicopter because you don’t have any of the relevant characteristics of an attack helicopter”. You can’t argue that, because it implicitly accepts the principle “it is ridiculous to claim to be X if you don’t have any of the relevant characteristics of X”.

And once you have accepted that principle, it leads almost inescapably to the question “what are the relevant characteristics of X?” Which is a vexed question when it comes to gender, because no matter what you come up with, there are going to be people who claim “I don’t have that characteristic but I am still X”. You need to come up with an agreed definition of what constitutes X. And good luck with that.

Regards,
Shodan

[msmith537]

@SamuelA

Put their penis in a woman (if F->M). Have a baby. Have vaginal sex with a man. Excrete milk from their breasts. Jerk off.

Sorry, I skipped to the middle of the thread. What the fuck are you guys talking about in here?:eek:

[begbert2]

@msmith537

Sorry, I skipped to the middle of the thread. What the fuck are you guys talking about in here?:eek:

He was stating that babies don’t have gender, I think.

[TimfromNapa]

@XT

Oh. I totally didn’t get that. Makes sense though. I don’t think they are equivalent responses, if that’s supposed to be their point. I mean, we are all human, after all, and sexual identification is going to be all in the mind as much as the physiology, but we aren’t helicopters and there is simply no way to identify as an inanimate object. As posters have pointed out, helicopters don’t talk…they also don’t eat.

It IS a stupid point if that’s what they are getting at.

Very well stated.

[TimfromNapa]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

When someone explicitly tells me that they don’t want to be treated like a human being, with human rights, I’m going to deny their request.

I’ll also point out how it’s a dumb analogy for someone else who’s wanting to be treated like a human being with rights.

I don’t think it could be better said.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@msmith537

Sorry, I skipped to the middle of the thread. What the fuck are you guys talking about in here?:eek:

Weekend plans.

[Ronald_Raygun]

@Slash1972

These two statements seem to contradict each other.

I think SamuelA is asserting that trans people should make so much effort, monetarily and medically, that it would be difficult to fake. As a result, the idea of being able to simply claim a gender identity is – well, I don’t know if “offensive” conveys how he feels, but it seems to go against his idea of what being trans is all about.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Miller

Where are you getting the idea that feminists only opposed the draft when people started talking about including women in it?

@SamuelA

History textbooks.

Name one.

[truthseeker3]

@Riemann

As a thought experiment, suppose you were the classic “brain in a vat”, transplanted out of your current body, placed in a nutrient bath and kept alive, with all your sensory inputs and outputs connected to the world via a computer interface. Are you now a computer? Or are you still human? If you’re a human, are you man or a woman? I think you’d probably still feel like a human of whatever sex you were originally, but there’s no self-evident answer here. This is just the set-up.

Now suppose that at conception we have the technology to separate your brain from your body and keep them alive independently. And let’s say you are XY, you have what is typically “male DNA”. We place both your body and your brain in separate nutrient baths and keep them alive. We ensure that your (headless) body receives the hormone signals etc to trigger the “male” development pathway, so of course it grows a penis and testicles and (eventually) a hairy chest. Your brain meanwhile is in a separate vat. Although it has XY DNA, it is artificially infused with the hormone signals etc that trigger the “female” development pathway from conception. But wait, there’s more. In this thought experiment, we have 23rd century virtual reality technology. Your brain is also provided with a VR sensory interface so your brain thinks it’s not in a vat. It thinks it’s growing up as a little girl in a typical suburban home. In principle, if our VR is good enough, we can generate inputs and process outputs to/from the brain that are indistinguishable from real life input/output. Since all the physical elements (hormones etc) are identical to those of a girl, and all the life experiences are indistinguishable from a real girl having a normal youth not in a vat, the brain must surely develop thinking and feeling that it’s a girl.

So now, of course, mad scientists that we are, at the age of (say) 18 we transplant the brain back into its body. What now? I’m not saying there is some obvious “gotcha” here, I’m interested what people think.

I’ve really been struggling with this. Well, not this post, but it kind of captures a real-life situation I’m in right now. A friend has an adult child who was raised male but is now “transitioning” (my friend’s word - I’m not entirely sure what that means). Mostly I just try to listen to my friend, but I don’t think I can avoid pronouns forever.

[DrFidelius]

@truthseeker3

I’ve really been struggling with this. Well, not this post, but it kind of captures a real-life situation I’m in right now. A friend has an adult child who was raised male but is now “transitioning” (my friend’s word - I’m not entirely sure what that means). Mostly I just try to listen to my friend, but I don’t think I can avoid pronouns forever.

Of a friend of yours, say someone named Kathy, told you she wanted to be called Kate from now on, would you have a problem adjusting to this?
It is similar to someone you knew as Mike wanted to be known as Michelle.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@truthseeker3

I’ve really been struggling with this. Well, not this post, but it kind of captures a real-life situation I’m in right now. A friend has an adult child who was raised male but is now “transitioning” (my friend’s word - I’m not entirely sure what that means). Mostly I just try to listen to my friend, but I don’t think I can avoid pronouns forever.

I’m comfortable with struggling with this. In my own mind, my gender doesn’t really matter. If I woke up as a woman tomorrow, I’d be freaked out by the impossibility of it all, but I don’t think it’d affect my core identity any more than it would if I woke up with blond hair or no freckles. But I have to recognize that it matters a great deal to many other folks, both cis and trans.

Pronouns are tricky, because we’ve been taught since childhood to use them a particular way, and to conceptualize the gender of other people a particular way. I mess up; I try to correct myself. One important idea is to get over myself: just because it sounds strange in my ears doesn’t mean I need to worry about my own ears.