Obviously not. There’s a qualitative difference between using a different name for somebody and recognizing a person as being a different gender - and the shift from Mike to Michelle definitely implies a recognition of a change of gender. Which of course is explicitly the entire reason that names are changed like that in the first place - these people want their gender change recognized and accepted.
Well, I think this gets to the heart of my struggle. If it was just one individual (or small group of individuals), I would say “hmmm… they’re kind of both, so let them be the judge of which is more appropriate.” (And I think I’d actually be more ok with them changing their name than someone who’s always been Kathy but now suddenly wants to be Kate.)
But I think I’m being asked to buy into the idea that gender is just a societal construct, and I don’t believe that.
You seem to be more invested in the gender of a specific person than they are. Look at it this way, the overwhelming majority of people you know are perfectly fine with the gender that they are. So there is no real danger to your understanding of societal gender constructs. Pretty sure they will remain largely intact if you allow for the occasional exception to the rule.
I’m curious how it is that you “mess up”? Women = “she”, Man = “he”. What is there to mess up?
You can support the validity of a trans person’s experience, without necessarily buying into their theory about why they have that experience.
Most people assume the gender of individuals based on external physical characteristics. This is how we are taught to address people using the pronouns in the English language. This can be an exercise fraught with danger when the external physical charactertics of an individual do not match who they internally identify as. You only find out through conversation.
Efforts to change the way English functions have mostly fallen flat, but I personally have made a habit to use ‘they’. Lots of people don’t like that and think it should be exclusively plural (despite a long history to the contrary).
Fraught with danger? What kind of danger am I in if I address a person who looks like a man “He”? Or addressed a person who looks like a woman “She”?
Is it grave danger?
If a person such as that told me that their gender wasn’t what they externally project, then fine, I’ll just say the other pronoun.
But I didn’t mess up. Can’t mess up when you don’t originally know.
Have you ever heard of hyperbole? :rolleyes:
You run the risk of hurting someone, losing face, etc. If misgendering someone doesn’t bother you, then fair enough, I guess. Also, this doesn’t even just apply to trans people. Some women look very 'masculine 'and some men look very ‘feminine’. You don’t think being called ‘sir’ as a woman would be annoying? I know folk who this happens to all the time, and I get why it wouldn’t be pleasant.
To avoid assumptions, then best strategy is a neutral pronoun.
I have a friend, let’s say Jason. Jason and I mainly knew each other through gaming, some years back; we gamed together for years on a nearly-weekly basis. But the group fell apart, and now I mainly know Jason through Facebook, as well as through Jason’s excellent online reporting.
Jason came out as trans a few years ago and asked to be called “she” or “they.” But Jason kept her name.
I struggle to remember to call Jason “she” when I talk about her. I mess up.
I’ve had other similar experiences where I misgender someone. I hate doing so.
Fair enough, but I’m curious if she had changed her name as well, would you struggle to remember to call her by her new name?
I dunno. She’s the only person I’ve known both before and after transitioning. I hope not, but I dunno.
The key point is that, I mess up, and that’s my problem to handle.
nm
This is the “say it louder for the folks in back” takeaway in these discussions. For a long time, I questioned the “reality” of how transgender folks perceive their gender, but quickly realized the best approach was to validate their feelings and not force them to justify themselves (unless that was explicitly the context of a willing discussion).
And, over time, my own thinking evolved to recognize the greater nuance and fuzziness of these terms and perceptions. I also better recognized the intense pressure, discomfort, and fear that many/most transgender folks are living with and that contributing to those challenges was worth avoiding even if I found myself occasionally mildly discomforted.
The attack helicopter meme is an insult of trans people so if a student demanded to be treated as an attack helicopter, I’d say “shut up, little bigot” because it is only an insult and has literally never been anything else. And you’re asking “what if this insulting parody wasn’t a parody at all?” Thanks for that.
What trans people are actually demanding would be called manners if it were meant for anyone else but since it’s directed at a vulnerable group, it gets labelled “politically correct”. And virtually none of you even know a trans person and might meet one once in your life, so you can’t act like they’re imposing some undue burden because you have to remember the right pronoun like you would for someone’s pet. You don’t ACTUALLY have students in your class identifying as trees and mailboxes. So I dunno maybe you don’t mean it but maybe you could see how it’s irritating when your “sincere question” is just the transphobic meme rephrased
And even if you are just asking an sincere question, because I can’t give you like a logical proof of why the attack helicopter shouldn’t count except for common sense like “I think it’s disingenuous”, then it makes both cases sound absurd.
If I had a boy in my class and they asked to be called by a girl’s name, the only reason I wouldn’t do it automatically is if I thought they were making a joke at trans’ expense. It’s way too hard to tell who’s joking because the memers make the absurd shit seem genuine and the genuine shit seem absurd. I suppose I’d do it and confirm it with their parent.
By the way, are we seriously going to tolerate people… y’know… doing this?
Like, really? Going full “I identify as an attack helicopter why are you being bigoted against me” isn’t against the rules here? If not: why the fuck not?
I cosign basically everything about this post.